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 Post subject: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:40 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Upstate New York
I am not sure many guys are interested in this slug anymore, but it may be a fun read for some who are working hard on their own slug projects.
I thought I would go crazy trying to get these slugs to work, but it was 2 years of frustration and then big celebration. This was about 25 years ago and I loaded 100's of these for myself and friends, till I started to use BRI's

I started to load my own Foster style 12 ga slugs in the late 70’s , using a Lyman mold and roll crimp in 2 ¾ slug casings. It was a long hard learning experience just to get to factory like accuracy. But eventually, I got better then the best factory accuracy (at the time) and better field performance on deer. Out of a good smooth bore with a scope, 5 shots would group into 3 inches at 75 yds.
I believe the secret to an accurate Foster style slug (esp. in a SB) is that it must expand rapidly and evenly in the CARTRIDGE as it is fired. The slug expands its outside diameter by collapsing in length by the force of the powder behind it and weight of slug front section and the resistance of crimp ahead of it. It then has to enter the forcing cone concentric to the bore. If it has expanded properly in the case/chamber, it will swage down to a perfect bore size and be quite accurate. If the nose is not concentric or the base is at an angle to bore the slug will not be accurate. This became apparent when I retrieved fired slugs from a snow bank behind my back stop one year. They were about half their unfired length and were a perfect fit in the bore of my gun. These were factory slugs and I could tell the accurate Winchesters from the poor performing Federals just by looking at them, the Winchesters at that time had a star on the nose. The Win. Nose and base were square to sides but the Feds were at and angle. I felt the Wins used a faster burning powder as the recoil was a quicker jab and less flame came out of the barrel, but that was just my guess at the time. Dissecting loaded rounds showed the Winchester slug to have a larger base diameter and a thick hard card under the slug, Federal lacked any HC, the slug was on top of a fiber like wad. So I tried to duplicate the Winchesters as best I could.
WHAT I DID WAS,
1. Slugs must be cast very soft, use pure lead. (Or as close to it as possible, cable sheathing, lead pipe)

2. Slug must be loaded concentric in cartridge case with roll crimp centering nose and holding slug firmly in place. The best way to do this is make slugs fit snugly in the cartridge case, their diameter should be .725 -.740 diameter. The undersized .690 cast slug will certainly expand to fill the inside diameter of the shell case when fired, but the trick is to do this while staying concentric (in line) with the bore.
( I did this by roll knurling the Lyman slug up to about .735 diameter. As cast it was about .690. I fit the slug on a pin shaped like the molds plug, the pin was pressed into a ball bearing mounted on a plate. A pivoting lever had a hand crank with a helical gear mounted inline with side of slug (when on the pin). By pivoting the lever to engage gear into side of slug and rotating crank once or twice it engraved “rifling” on side of slug, expanding the slugs out side diameter. This was controlled by an adjustable stop for the lever. For lack of a better term I called it a “slug rifler”. I never tried other methods but would see if just expanding the base diameter to about .735 with something might work, it would be slightly bell shaped, but much simpler then what I did
I do not believe this “Rifling” caused the slug to rotate, but besides making the undersize slug larger in diameter to fit the case, it made its side walls weaker and easier to collapse and expand quickly when fired. Plus it looks cool ;o) 3. Use a substantial Hard Card column under slug, ¼ to ½ inch tall. Then a fiber wad column that compresses easily under the HC. I used a BPGS or cut a AA wads gas seal section off, for over the powder wad. I used Circle Fly wads for the HC and Fiber. I ended up using 4 .125 thick HC and 1 fiber wad, 1/2 thick and a gas seal.
4. Use a near max. charge of fast burning powder to help expand the slug in cartridge quickly. I had good results with IMR 7625 and WW 571.
5. I gained some accuracy by filling the slugs cavity with dense granulated plastic.
6. I was able to cast heavier slugs by placing a small washer under the moulds shoulder screw that he cavity plug locks into, I found 1 1/8 (495 grain) shot good out of a SB, and plowed through brush better then the 1 oz. Long range penetration on large deer was also improved. Anything heavier then that seemed to only shoot good out of a rifled barrel.
7. A good tight roll crimp is important, but I found I did not need once fired cases. I would put Crossman Co2 cartridges in the empty case mouths for a few days prior to loading and got good crimps even after 3-5 firings.
*. If you don’t get good accuracy you must try to recover some slugs to see what is going on, soft back stop at the farthest distance you can should work.
8. I pan lubed my slugs when I switched to rifled barrels to keep leading down, but never tried lubed slugs in a smooth bore. The lube filled the grooves of the “rifling” and I used an empty case with primer out and a plunger inserted thru hole to cut slugs from lube pan and just push plunger to get slug out of case. Using a rifeled barrel and hitting deer with the same load as I had in a smooth bore showed improved shocking power, the rotating slug must transmit hydralic shock when it hits!
Doug




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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:30 pm 
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Doug,

That was a very informative post. Since I am not particularly a SB shooter I found your observations to be very helpful in my understanding of the process.

Thanks,


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:35 am 
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Hey Doug,

I also must say, thats sounds like great info, to anyone wanting to put the foster type slugs together.

I also have to say that I am glad you are not using Blue Dot as a powder, or jeager might be in here, saying that load won't work :shock: There I go picking on jeager .... Now why would I do such a thing :) Sorry jeager :lol:

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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:40 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Upstate New York
Thanks guys for the kind words :)
It was lots of fun when I finally got the reloads to perform so well. I didn't think much about them untill I found this site a couple of months ago.
I knew I had to find a new slug to replace the discontinued Winchester 3" Suprem BRI ones I have been shooting for about 15 years. But didn't realize guys were reloading slugs and sharing their results like you guys are, kinda making me want to use reloads this coming year! We need a 12ga/.50 sabot from a vendor ASAP to really get new era reloads in the field.
Doug


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:21 pm
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I hear you on the regular forsters collasping, I was fiddling with a smoothbore Stoeger double barrel last winterand the cheap Wally-mart Winchesters. Had a big snow drift holding the target, and come spring retrieved the slugs.

A unfired one slug is .721 x .687 long, the fired ones are .731 x .480 long, same diameter as my bores. The little dimple on the nose shows zippo for deformation, while the hollow base is now about 1/4" x 3/16" deep, and there is no tell tale sign of rifling anymore.

I also have one of the Lyman Foster slug molds, been going to cast up a few for my PIA, Ithaca DS Police Spl. She has a .705 bore and matches the slug diameter perfectly, but this thing has always shot everything 12" high.

Btw, did you call that shop for those old WW Spuremes? Last time I was there, I plum forgot to ask, but I need to pick up a gun there this weekend or next and I'll snoop around and see if they are still in the corner.


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:40 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Upstate New York
Al,
Thanks for the leed on the Winchester 3" Supream BRI's !
But I have not called because I found a deal on 14 boxes of Winchester 3" Partition Gold's, just recieved them from the guy, I paid $150 shipped. I do hope to get out soon to see if the SPG's shoot good in my Hastings barrel.
If you think about it, find if the shop still has them and how many/$ as I at least would have a back up plan if the 3" SPG's fail me.
Thanks again Al,
Doug


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:03 pm 
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Now you know why I am obsessed with finding a proper load for a LYMAN 20 ga in a 12 GA. platform. Check out the diameter compared with a BRI. The Lyman slug I am using is .573 dia.
If I can get accuracy and a velocity of about 1700 fps I will have made it. Been at it for over two years.


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:06 pm 
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neo:
What/how are you getting the 20 ga. Lyman fosters to fit in the 12 ga. hull?
Duplex wads?
Maybe, just maybe, I know of a wad that is 12 ga. but takes a 20 ga. slug with no duplex crap to fool with.
I use a duplex 12/20 combo with tungsten shot and get 88% pattern density from a NO CHOKE choke.
Yup, 88% patterns at 40 yards with hi density shot with a duplex wad and #7 tungsten and only 1 oz of h.d. shot too boot.
It will kill even large ducks to 50 yards and probably give pellet pass thru.
#5 shot in 1.25 oz, with the duplex wad and NO CHOKE should give 90 % or better at 40 and shoot clear through the biggest honker.
Imagine this. I also got a best of the lot pattern of 88% from my 20 gauge BPS using a wad within a wad and 1 ounce of #7 h.d. shot and that will kill the biggest duck on the pond.
This load makes the 20 gauge a waterfowlers gun again and with NO CHOKE at all.
( but I confess I didn't have a cylinder choke for the bps so used a skeet choke.)
The only drawback? The h.d. costs...................................


ready???????????????????????????????????????????


$2.96 for






one





ounce! :evil:

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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:40 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Upstate New York
Neo,
The Lyman 20 ga/12ga load you have been working on is finished? Does Gardners have a "kit" for them with sabots yet? It sounds like a great idea for a sub-bore load. And if they do not need to Obturate like the fosters for accuracy the crimp and powder burn rate should not be as important.
Doug


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:52 pm 
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To answer you question it is the 20ga. Lyman sabot projectile load in a 12 ga. hull that I am developing . Yes .it is a duplex wad at this time (all components are commercially available. As they used to say "T'aint soup yet ". I thought I had a good load but it was just short range 50 yds and proved dissappointing at 100+. If you have an ideal of an existing wad out there that can carry a 20 ga.projectile as a 12 ga. wad I am all ears. PM me and we can talk. The biggest problem I have to overcome is a rate of twist vs slug weight that is 1-32 to 1-35. I do not have a 1-28 test platform to work with at this time.


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:20 pm
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Location: Maryland
Doug,

Thanks for the informative post. I would like to reload some Lyman Foster slugs for my Smooth Bore FN SLP Mk1 Police shotgun with 22" Barrel. How much 7625 did you use?


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:49 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:40 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Upstate New York
Chris,
I used 37 grains of 7625 with the basic 1oz. Lyman Foster Slug. The Lyman manual gave 1575 fps as its vel. This is in a 2 3/4" case.
What kind of wad column are you planning on trying? And the roll crimp is very important with that slug, fold crimps never seemed to work at all.
Good luck, and if you have any more ?s just ask.
Doug


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:20 pm
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Location: Maryland
Doug,

I am going to try what you used:
BPGS, Fiber, HC, Lyman Foster cast with soft lead toped with a roll crimp.

I probably won't do the knurling thing as I don't have the means to make a "slug rifler".

Did you use an overshot car wad?

Chris


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 Post subject: re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:40 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Upstate New York
Chris,
I did not use a over card wad over slug, if that is what you ment. I took some photos of some old loads, slugs and the wad column I used. Note the cicle on top of the slugs where my crimper spun, it is a home made crimper but worked great.
First photo is of one of my unfired rifled slugs with plastic filler , as cast 1 3/8 oz and a fired 13/8 oz, fired from a rifled barrel

Image

This is a shot of the crimps on a couple of different casings
Image

Slugs and wad column
Image

Looking in the back of 1oz and 1 3/8 oz slugs. Note the wall thicness increase on the unrifled 1 3/8 slug. Probably why I could not get as good accuracy with it out of a smooth bore, it would not expand as quickly when fired.
Image

I used a drill press to roll crimp my slugs and felt it helped accuracy by making the crimps more uniform. I would hold the shell loosely on DP’s table and drop the spinning crimper slowly on to shell mouth till shell spun slightly in my fingers and found its center. Then griping shell tighter I would lower crimper slightly and hold for a couple seconds while it heated shell mouth slightly, and then I ran the crimper home. That said, a friend who also loaded these slugs got reasonably good results with a hand drill.
If you don’t get good accuracy you must try to recover some slugs to see what is going on, soft back stop at the farthest distance you can should work.
Doug


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 Post subject: Re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 9:30 am
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Bump


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 Post subject: Re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:41 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:53 am
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Great read!


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 Post subject: Re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Location: Edinburgh
Sounds like your reprofiling of the slug base cavity is exactly what I was suggesting to a friend here to pursue....as the 12-ga Foster slug mold I loaned him came with the matching factory swaging system.

He was wanting to fire the slugs "as cast" - I was telling him they need swaging first.

Will copy him into this thread to see what info he can gain from it

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 Post subject: Re: Accuracy with Lyman Foster-12 ga
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:29 pm 
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