CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:51 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:48 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:56 am
Posts: 827
Anyone tried the "cut shell" method? Looks like a cheap way to get slug performance out of cheap 1 ounce #8 bird loads.

http://www.google.ae/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CFMQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dk3M46XVfVOU&ei=SI3RTeqfC4qcgQef8PWlDA&usg=AFQjCNEp3hGHf7Okd4boOYv1vzeGgWnN5w

slomo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:28 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:56 am
Posts: 827
[quote="slomo"]Anyone tried the "cut shell" method? Looks like a cheap way to get slug performance out of cheap 1 ounce #8 bird loads.

http://www.2ndamendmenttv.com/videos/shotguns/lost-arts-pt-1.html

slomo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:08 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:08 pm
Posts: 63
I've done some pretty crazzy things, but I wouldnt try a cut shell in my 12 gauge. Think about it if the wad is a tight fit in the choke of a shotgun, then how much tighter is it when you add the thickness of the hull to it? I wouldn't even try it in a cylinder bore gun. Think about it, the money you save on slugs is incomparable to the cost of your life or that of your gun. If you want to start shooting slugs start loading your own. You can start for about $100, which is what 20 boxes of 12ga remington slithers will cost you to buy and shoot. Check out the Lyman 525gr sabot slug. I'm just getting in to loading these. Will load a few hundred in a combination of 3.5" and 2 3/4" rounds, when I'm done with this quarter of med school and I have time to find enough free wheel weights to cast that many.

_________________
Just Another Insomniac


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:10 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:08 pm
Posts: 63
Sluggers not slithers, stupid auto correct.

_________________
Just Another Insomniac


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:16 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 pm
Posts: 11856
Location: MO
Why buy new tires?

Just drive on bald ones with the cords showing through!

Sooner or later, K-boom!

_________________
Beware, SuperXOne and the American Communist Party support the same agenda!
If you like your health care, you CAN'T keep it!
Remember who and which party did this to you! VOTE!
NRA Benefactor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:06 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:02 pm
Posts: 740
Location: Dyersville Iowa
Just like drive on the rims at 70 mph on ice it can be done but how safe is it? And would you really want to try it with a brand new car? Not a safe thing to shoot out of a lot of guns with screw in chokes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:14 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:57 am
Posts: 237
Something one should only do as a last ditch effort, and preferably in a cheapo shotgun. You wouldn't want to try this in your Kolar, Perazzi or K-80.

Back in the days of old, pumpkin balls were notoriously inaccurate, as they did not fill up the bore and rattled their way down the barrel. Cut shells were done first with paper shells, in the early 1900's, before the invention of plastics and certainly before the Power Piston wad. Winchester I believe was the first to introduce plastic to protect a shotshell's shot column, and it was a plastic collar wrapped around the shot load. Early ballistic adventurers would have been cutting paper shells, and forward of the Nitro card or "over powder" card in the paper shell. Various paper and fiber wads were used to build up the wad column over the powder and before the shot charge. Another trick was to open the crimp and pour wax into the loose shot, solidifying the mass, then re-crimp.

Today's plastic shotshell outside diameters vary in size from .780" to .795" for a 12 ga. Pushing that mass through a bore and choke that varies from .740" at the forcing cone on down to the choke area which could be .690" or less in diameter (I.E. full choke in a 12 ga. is typically .690) is an exercise that could be debated on its safety merits, or lack of. It was not uncommon in those days for the paper hull to remain stuck in the muzzle, having the interior pass through and out the barrel. The next round through the same barrel was probably a most interesting experience.

My advice: Proceed with caution if you must.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: !
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:39 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 pm
Posts: 11856
Location: MO
Good post there Parker!

BTW, I have an old Parker SXS that was made especially for brass shells. Yes, the bore was larger in a gun set up especially for using brass hulls, since the brass is so thin. The wads, etc. necessary for brass loading is larger than today's bores and have to be "squeezed" down a bit.

But nothing like what a "cut shell" is going to be.

There are still old time guns coming out of the woodwork, yet today, with bulged barrels. The two most likely culprits for the cause of all those old guns and bulged barrels was likely paper base wads, (all they had back then), and what Parker said about the shell tube stopping somewhere in the bore.

Those guns had softer, more malleable steel than today's stronger, hardened barrels suitable for steel shot. They bulged easily, instead of "blowing". And if one succeeds in destroying one of today's barrels, it will likely be much more violent as well.

I am old enough that I can remember people filling up the shot cavity, (shot already in it), with melted paraffin. Even back then, 65 plus years ago, they were only talking about how they "used" to do so, and had stopped the practice.

My advice? Don't be stupid! As quote the old John Wayne saying, "Life is hard and it's even harder, if you are stupid!"

_________________
Beware, SuperXOne and the American Communist Party support the same agenda!
If you like your health care, you CAN'T keep it!
Remember who and which party did this to you! VOTE!
NRA Benefactor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: If you want to do this for Terminal Effect there is a safe w
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:58 pm 
Limited Edition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:59 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
This is the “safe and sane” way to make a “cut shell slug load” for a 12ga. You don’t just cut a 12ga. shell you take 16ga. shell (outside diameter of 16ga. shell is just a smidgen under 12ga. bore diameter) and cut the head off of it. Super Glue the bottom of the 16ga. wad inside the 16ga. shell casing and then load that inside a 12ga. shell over a stack of nitro cards.

Image

As to old fashioned paper card wads being dangerous because they create barrel obstructions and causing barrel bulges. That is pure juicy, green, warm, and fresh BS. Now cutting a 12ga. load and trying to force a 0.80+” diameter 12ga. shell casing down a 0.73” bore diameter and even worse through a choked gun which is even tighter at the muzzle whether it be an old paper wadding load or a new plastic component load ~ yah that could create a problem especially if the crimp opens up and the wadding and shot blow through and leaves the cut sleeve in the barrel as an obstruction for the next load.

Using the cut of nose part of a 16ga. shell which is the right diameter to fit the inside of a 12ga. bore and having a solid full 12ga. diameter hard card stack underneath it so it can’t blow through and leave the cut sleeve in the bore. That is the correct way to build such a load. Such loads do provide devastating short range terminal ballistics since they act like a fragmenting slug and to horrific damage to targets but aren’t accurate enough to be used beyond about 40 yards.

_________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If you want to do this for Terminal Effect there is a sa
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:37 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 pm
Posts: 11856
Location: MO
turbo1889 wrote:
This is the “safe and sane” way to make a “cut shell slug load” for a 12ga. You don’t just cut a 12ga. shell you take 16ga. shell (outside diameter of 16ga. shell is just a smidgen under 12ga. bore diameter) and cut the head off of it. Super Glue the bottom of the 16ga. wad inside the 16ga. shell casing and then load that inside a 12ga. shell over a stack of nitro cards.

Image

As to old fashioned paper card wads being dangerous because they create barrel obstructions and causing barrel bulges. That is pure juicy, green, warm, and fresh BS. Now cutting a 12ga. load and trying to force a 0.80+” diameter 12ga. shell casing down a 0.73” bore diameter and even worse through a choked gun which is even tighter at the muzzle whether it be an old paper wadding load or a new plastic component load ~ yah that could create a problem especially if the crimp opens up and the wadding and shot blow through and leaves the cut sleeve in the barrel as an obstruction for the next load.

Using the cut of nose part of a 16ga. shell which is the right diameter to fit the inside of a 12ga. bore and having a solid full 12ga. diameter hard card stack underneath it so it can’t blow through and leave the cut sleeve in the bore. That is the correct way to build such a load. Such loads do provide devastating short range terminal ballistics since they act like a fragmenting slug and to horrific damage to targets but aren’t accurate enough to be used beyond about 40 yards.


Wow, pretty sure of yourself, aren't you?

And I have to give you credit for "thinking", such as it is.

Lets see what we can make of the above:

First, have you ever heard of the recommendation of never loading anything but tested and published loads?

Please tell us where you found this load published? Just what loading manual?

It smacks of a couple of stunts I tried, more than 60 years ago. One of them split the barrel at the choke. The other didn't phase an old damascus barreled gun, thank God!

Now as to the above quote: "As to old fashioned paper card wads being dangerous because they create barrel obstructions and causing barrel bulges. That is pure juicy, green, warm, and fresh BS."

What is your preference in sauce to go with eating those words? Salt and pepper? Mustard?

The only BS here is your statement! I can assure you that such does happen! I have had it happen, personally!

While it was not a "cardboard wad", it was even lighter, and had a hole through the middle. As in the rolled paper base wad, from a Federal hull with said paper base wad. I have been warning folks here and elsewhere for years, about the danger of loading those type hulls, too many times! While I had found some of them up at the top of the hull mouth, and even pulling out on the primer punch, I just threw those particular hulls away, and kept on loading the others. This one escaped the hull and lodged in the bore. As the John Wayne quote goes, "Life is tough, and it's even tougher if one is stupid!" Every heard the saying, "Too soon old, and too late, smart"?

Absolutely no abnormal noise, feeling, etc. and it broke the bird just fine. First shot of the day, and out of a clean barrel. But, boy-oh-boy, was the next shot a doozy! Kicked the hell out of me, (still broke that bird as well), but in investigating what had happened, the previous shell no longer had any base wad left in it. Bulged a modern, (late 1980's Beretta 303 auto loader), still in the heavy part, just ahead of the chamber.

Enjoy your crow! Oh, that's right, it wasn't crow, now was it?

_________________
Beware, SuperXOne and the American Communist Party support the same agenda!
If you like your health care, you CAN'T keep it!
Remember who and which party did this to you! VOTE!
NRA Benefactor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:31 pm 
Limited Edition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:59 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
Well that’s it. I am an old tired man. I have pressure test equipment yet I continually take flack from those who have none. I have developed shotgun slug loads completely from scratch down to turning prototype slug designs from lead cylinders to test potential design shapes and styles to figure out what works and what doesn't before I have custom mold cuts to produce a particular design in quantity. Yet I continue to be berated about with continual deliberate, and I have come to believe, malicious insults about how if I would just try a longer slug, or a slug with a thinner skirt, or a more conventional round nose shape, or a deeper hollow base my designs would be "fixed" when they haven’t even loaded or shot any of them or even held one of them in their hand for that matter. Fact is I already tried those potential alterations by painstakingly turning prototypes from solid plugs one at a time to test the effects of various changes before I ever had a mold cut. Then come the ones who say that increasing a slug’s weight reduces its sectional density and thus decreases both its penetration depth and the width of the permanent shock cavity. Then it starts all over again with another member of the militant violent religious sect of the reloading book gods worshipers claiming that slug loads cannot be pressure tested but rather require a complex string theory calculus based equation to determine the chamber pressure and this formula is only known to the sacred reloading book gods and thus my pressure curve measurements are worthless, and the cycle starts all over again.

You have won the argument, jugchoke, by reason of the fact I’m tired of fighting and never really liked to fight in the first place but rather was just concerned about the continual and rampant spread of all kinds of old reloader tales. I could talk about the fact that base wads in hulls with fiber or paper base wads such as those currently produced by Federal and Fiocchi and sometimes found in older hulls from other manufactures can indeed break loose and get knocked down into the bore or more correctly sucked into the bore by the negative suction created after the main charge pressure subsides and can indeed become a bore obstruction and that usually this is the result of such hulls getting wet and then someone reloading them after they have dried again. That danger is real and more then one of the sacred reloading books has stated to only reload such hulls if you know for sure they haven’t gotten wet. That could of course be just simplified to not loading such hulls that are range pick-ups that you don’t know how long have been out in the weather. Then we could talk about how this is not the same thing as the hard card, felt, fiber, and cork wads that have been successfully used for over two centuries that go on top of the powder charge and under the shot and how to this day the cheapo Remington and Winchester foster slug factory loads are loaded with a stack of such wads and anyone with an enquiring mind can confirm this by dissecting such a factory load. But I can’t hold out the false hope that a logical mind could see the difference between paper and fiber base wads in the bottom of a hull under the powder charge, specifically those that have gotten wet, expanded, and then contracted again upon drying and are thus are broken loose and can pop forward into the bore after the main charge has already fired by the suction created after the main pressure curve and an over powder wad stack that acts as a piston and is driven out of the bore along with the payload ahead of it.

This is my final post on this forum. I have had it. I will not respond to any PM’s or otherwise from this site. I’m throwing in the towel.

_________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:28 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:43 am
Posts: 107
Good thing I have your e-mail.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:15 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 pm
Posts: 11856
Location: MO
Come on, "tired old man"! You are talking to another one of those here! (75 this year!)

You didn't make any mention here of "having pressure test equipment", so how the hell was I to know that I was not talking to some smart, (both ways), young snippet, that had invented what really is likely a very good method, (when one does have the testing equipment). (Good on you!)

That is one of the problems though, you never gave a "complete load", (and I don't blame you there one bit!). But even without such, it can make any whipper snapper think he can get away with it as well.

Yes, there is a big difference between base wads and "piston" cardboard, etc. wads, in the chances that they might get stuck in the bore! But that is not the way it was stated, more like that such a "flimsy" obstruction would be no problem.

That is why I came back so hard.

As to the base wads and the "vacuum" when any pressure vessel is completely vented suddenly, you are the very first of all those that I have conversed about it with, to even acknowledge that they understood the effect!

Not that I think it is actually "sucking" it up the bore, but it does go to a vacuum, and may very well contribute to the over-all problem. I believe there may well be a combination of things going on to do so, or maybe only one of a number of possibilities.

Oh, and I have proven, (to at least my satisfaction), that the "wet paper base wad", is not the bugaboo that is often bandied about! I have cut up and tested bucket fulls of these Federals, and can find no difference between brand new, once fired, (even from the factory time), and ones that have lain outside in the dirt, rain and snow of our Missouri winters. (Not that I am going to load any such, I just wanted to check out the theory. It's false!)

It seems to be much more a problem on exactly how good, or bad, the original factory crimp was to begin with. (In my mind, crimping has seldom proven to be a good method of attaching two parts! Let alone something that lives in a pressure/vacuum chamber. Pretty piss poor, matter of fact!)


I now load them only once, (I just can't give up on such a good "throw away", the first reload, hull), as well as all the other two piece hulls, such as the AA HS and all the "Euro trash"!

I really do hope this clears the air a bit, us old timers can't be at each others throats! We are already out numbered!

I apologize for coming on so strong, and lets move on.

_________________
Beware, SuperXOne and the American Communist Party support the same agenda!
If you like your health care, you CAN'T keep it!
Remember who and which party did this to you! VOTE!
NRA Benefactor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:11 am 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:57 am
Posts: 237
I am always amazed at pressures that a shotshell can produce and how close to danger we come each time we touch one off in front of our face.

My buddy this winter was shooting hand thrown clays with his son and using his old Belgium A5. He is no stranger to firearms but thanks to working around jets in Vietnam, has lost a lot of his hearing today. He likes to dabble in "light loads" (1 oz.) and must have had a load that was charged too light. He remembers the first shot didn't sound or feel right at a clay that didn't break. And he should have suspected something when the shell didn't eject. Little did he know he had a wad in the barrel. He loaded another round without checking the bore and took aim at another departing clay. At the 'boom,' his barrel burst forward of the forearm. He now has a barrel that's only 17" long.

He next plan now is to ship the barrel off to Mike Orlen to have an extended tube permanently fitted so his barrel is at least compliant with Fed. standards. Not the look he was hoping for on his Belgium gun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:26 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 119
Quote:
This is my final post on this forum. I have had it. I will not respond to any PM’s or otherwise from this site. I’m throwing in the towel.


Turbo, I hate to hear this news. Over the last three years this site has lost a number of informitive and interesting teachers. I want you to know that I have learned a lot from your posts and truly respect your opinion. This site just won't be the same without you. :(


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:59 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:56 am
Posts: 827
Took a 437 pound Russian boar last weekend. Used a cut up 1 ounce Remington gun club load with number 8 shot. These cut shells are amazing. Left a near fist size hole for an exit wound. Let's just say the boar didn't move at all after the round hit.

slomo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:51 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:57 am
Posts: 237
slomo wrote:
Took a 437 pound Russian boar last weekend. Used a cut up 1 ounce Remington gun club load with number 8 shot. These cut shells are amazing. Left a near fist size hole for an exit wound. Let's just say the boar didn't move at all after the round hit.

slomo

Slomo,
Share some pictures of the kill and any post-mortem pics. I'm interested in the terminal ballistics of this load. If it left an exit wound, I have to believe the top of the cut shotshell with nothing but a crimp to hold it all together and still passed completely through the boar. What was the distance of the shot?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:52 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:56 am
Posts: 827
The round took out the very top of the shoulder, neck and spine area. Let's just say these are some nasty rounds. Lots of chaos in that wound. Distance was about 35-40 yards. The round hit dead on POI of my Remington 1100. Kind of funny killing hogs with a bird gun, LOL.

Mr. piggy is already in the freezer. Didn't take the camera on that hunt. I left the house knowing I forgot something (idiot I know). My hunting buddies were breaking my b_lls about me blowing up my barrel and all the backseat driver stories. All I can say is these work. Now I have 4 more converted buddies to cut shells.

I got tired of spending a ton on sabots and tried these. After seeing the "money shot" on that boar, no need for sabots again. Buy a box of 25 for $4.50 and your set. I used 1 ounce loads for less drop at distance. Haven't pattern boarded these yet but under 50 yards you're golden.

Just got off the phone with some friends. They went to Texas again (without me) on a boar hunt yesterday. They reported Desert Storm like terror. Smallest victim was 283 verified pounds. Largest was a bruising 804 pounds. They said that one took two shots to expire that one. Said it was a cross between a European and a American hog that's bred for meat. Took 7 guys to get it in the truck. Sucker broke the tailgate on a new Chevy 1 ton, oops!

slomo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:55 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:56 am
Posts: 827
forgot, my guess was when the round hit the shoulder it broke up and fragmented everything. Like some kind of fireworks like wound cavity.

slomo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "CUT SHELLS"
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:16 am 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:57 am
Posts: 237
slomo wrote:
forgot, my guess was when the round hit the shoulder it broke up and fragmented everything. Like some kind of fireworks like wound cavity.

slomo

Well, in the video featuring Sir Barry the Lead Gnome, he notes "three inches of penetration in water" after puncturing the bucket, and the lead acts like "a seventy caliber Glaser;" both statements indicate poor penetration for an ounce and an eighth of shot and is probably something I would never use on something heavily built like a Russian boar.

I still contend a cheap Remington Slugger would be a better choice.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 8fan, bigalt, Bing [Bot], bkroll, Bladeswitcher, Bob_K, Boehler, bojo, Boomhand, btomlin, bull64, C Texan, carpinteyrofkc, carpinteyrohwb, carpinteyroiuz, Cerberus, CLuttrell, cookoff013, dbuffington, dgrebel, driller, excaliburmike, Excellent959, fwood, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, GulfCoast, Hizzoner, hoosierpete, hopper810, huntermett, instructor, jack mountain, krimmie, LaPlata, Marauder, martw, Maser, mongoose777, MPN, MSN [Bot], NorthernShooter, olddrum, Passport, PowPow, quail-chaser, rlm5, robert146, ROBinGa, seb7515, shoot-technology, TankRIP, thestumper, WAGinVA, Wild Skies, Yahoo [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice