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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:31 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:59 pm
Posts: 328
Location: SE MI
hubel, you have a most interesting niche in the shooting world. I like the way you present the old concepts as well as the state of the art concepts.

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
You can see various 4bores.8bores, etc on youtube.Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:57 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.

A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.

Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:05 am 
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 10:03 pm
Posts: 281
Location: NW Ohio
In smokeless muzzleloaders I have had good luck with Fed 209s and CCI ms.


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:06 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.

And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:37 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 10:03 pm
Posts: 281
Location: NW Ohio
Interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:15 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Oh yes interesting- Giving me some ideas.
Like making say aluminum bottoms with
2 plastic rings, to ride the bore/rifling,
on them, and have a variety of noses to
put on it. Like for best straightline penetration
in game. a nose like the copper ones that
are in the US-S sabots.Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:33 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is picture of 4 long cases of
RIP's on the AR forum.
Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
getting these and lengthening chambers
allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
Some factory guns are 3.5"

Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
Chambered for these you can use
3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
3.5" from the factory.

3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.

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Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
see one of those slugs in the picture.

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Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.

In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
It is great to see a smoothbore slug like the US-S
that is as accurate as fullbore slugs from
rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
from European Cartridge.Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:15 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:38 am
Posts: 1318
Location: Iselin, N J
Hello Ed, the roll crimper in your last post looks very nice with a deep cavity.
Where can I get one from and how much for a 12 gauge.
Happy New Year!
Ajay
Video Memories
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:10 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
I was a gift from Lefteris at European Cartridge for testing
his sabot slugs at high speeds, no price set yet that I know
of. Ed www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:22 am
Posts: 117
Location: St. Albans, West Virginia
... Hmmm.. who made that barrel? .... When i was at white horse 1000 yrd range my friend Tim brought a round that looked very similar to that as a joke.

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:40 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
What barrel are you asking about.

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.

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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:48 pm
Posts: 646
Ed, I am sure that some People, Myself included woul;d want some the FIET slugs.
Where are they available in the US? I wonder if there is an importer here to get some. I tied the Sauvestre slugs about 10 years ago. They were pretty destructive. I didn't get a chance to shoot them at Deer.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:15 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
I haven't found them here, I just got the picture
from another forum that a guy posted the ad in.
Interesting idea in that the 4 petals can transfer
huge shock damage to game on contact and the
small diameter hardened center
could penetrate deep.Ed




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