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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:05 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be

over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..

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Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.

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Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.
So far 340 gr 3700 and 360 gr to 3600 with long freebore.

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Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,.Ed

Image




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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:47 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Got extra 4bore barrel to sell,

chambered,contact if interested, Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:41 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.

Image


Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases
necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed

Image


Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The
3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.

Image

Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..


[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmbmg.jpg[/IEd


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:45 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..


Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:07 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..

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Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.

Image

Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:51 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 10:03 pm
Posts: 281
Location: NW Ohio
Always interesting


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:40 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Shooters now are talking more; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case proportions, too fast of
powders, and the debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:22 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed

Image


Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..

Image


Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,

Image



A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:25 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber

in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't

something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,

which gives 50% more energy...


585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA


A view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,

Image


Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:56 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..


Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:30 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............

Image

Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added

Image

In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:55 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.

Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .

Image


Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA 3 & 3/4 (From Hell)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:02 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 969
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck when loaded over 44,000 psi....

Image

Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as the ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...

So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt,
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed


Image




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