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 Post subject: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:53 pm
Posts: 4
I've got a Winchester Model 12, recently purchased, 1953 vintage 12 gauge, 30" bbl, field grade, with about 95% of the original bluing. The gun cycles like a dream in the livingroom, but when I fire it, the action jams closed, requiring a fairly vigorous blow to move the slide back to eject the empty. Since the gun has been fired, the slide release behind the trigger is retracted, so I can't use that to unlock the action.

If when I cycle the action I slam the forend with some force, I can duplicate the problem.

Any suggestions, ideas, etc.?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
are you holding the forearm loose or tight in to your shoulder when you shoot? is the forearm clicking after you shoot?
what type of ammo brand?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:10 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:53 pm
Posts: 4
Thanks for the reply. I'm shooting a Winchester Super-X heavy game load, 1 1/8 oz., 7 1/2 lead shot, 3 1/4 dram eq.

As to how tightly I'm holding it against my shoulder, my best answer would be "firmly", but I'm not straining to press it into my shoulder. I haven't heard any noticeable clicking after I shoot, but I haven't been listening for it, either.

Right now, I have it back with my gunsmith, for the second time, to see what he can find. He's never seen anything like it with a M12, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:34 am 
Gunsmith
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 907
Location: St. Louis area
I know that some issues with Model-12's can be frustrating, especially when they are the type that seldom occur.

If your gunsmith has no luck fixing this condition, I may be able to find the cause and make your Winchester fun to use again.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:31 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:14 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Amarillo, Texas
Stewbert
Has the gun been lubricated?
Sounds like some old lube has gotten sticky and locking things up.
Has the gun been disassembled and cleaned and re-lubed?

Also, has the chamber been cleaned?

I also would suggest you buy a box of Winchester AA Target loads and see if the problem happens with them.
The new steel head winchester ammo you are shooting is not pump friendly.
This will give us a reference point.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:53 pm
Posts: 4
Thanks Kirby, if we don't get it working this time, I'll get in touch with you.

Also thanks Mike. Yes, the gunsmith fully disassembled, cleaned, and lubed the gun the last time, and I've cleaned and lubed the action myself, as well as thoroughly cleaning the chamber.

I never realized that steel head shells would not be friendly in this gun. I'll bring out some of my AA Target Loads next time to see if it makes any difference. I can always use up the Super-X stuff in the Benelli. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:08 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:36 pm
Posts: 714
Location: Wyoming
Stewbert,

Take a look at the rear end of the chamber. The first 1/4" is the chamber ring, a separate part from the barrel. If the barrel has been replaced, and the chamber ring was not properly fitted (reamed), it may have left a step between the ring and the barrel. When the cartridge is fired, and the head swells, it can form a lock-up situation, as you are describing.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:20 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:53 pm
Posts: 4
Thanks QuarterChoke. I'll ask my gunsmith to check that out.

If I interpret what you've said correctly, it would lock up because the head of the shell expands to fill the chamber beyond the chamber ring, so the fired shell is wedged in front of the ring, and would thus take some force for the extractor to pull the shell free. I'll examine a fired shell to see if I see any evidence of this.

However, in trying to understand the problem, I've found that if I close the action forcefully by moving the slide forward smartly, it will still be difficult to open the action again after a dry-fire, with no shell in the chamber. It's not as "stuck" as when I fire, of course, so I'm not sure if a dry-fire situation reveals the same problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:01 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:36 pm
Posts: 714
Location: Wyoming
Stewbert,

Your interpretation is correct. If you open the action you should be able to see a step where the ring is a smaller diameter than the chamber.

However, if you are having problems when you dry fire, then the chamber has nothing to do with it. The way a Model 12 works for opening is on recoil inertia. If you dry fire, the hammer falls, but the action bar lock won't trip. To make the action bar lock trip you have to push forward on the forend. When you do so you should hear a slight click. This is the lock releasing the action for opening. In normal firing this happens automatically when the gun recoils, and your hand holding the forend tends to remain stationary due to inertia. This gives an instant for the bar lock to release. Be sure that you are not expecting the gun to do something that it was not designed to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:05 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:28 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Monterey Ca
I just found this thread and wow this explains a lot. I just pulled out my real old M-12 like 1914 old and shot it some this weekend. Ay first I was having problem with no unlock after firing. I fould out not to pull on the fore arm to pull the gun into your shoulder. Be light on the forearm and let it take that split second after firing to allow the unlock. I fould this in dry firing not putting any rearward pressure hear the click and works great. I was thinking that this old gun was a hair out of timing. But from reading this thread this is normal for a model 12. I am going to shoot it next weekend in a skeet tournement.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 4
I believe I know what the problem is. I have torn apart my friends Model 12 100 times (at least) in the last month. It was one of the problems I fixed. You can fix it yourself. No need for your local gunsmith to do it. It take 3 minutes and 1 screw to be taken out. The cartridge stop or cartridge cutoff (depending on which diagram your reading) can fit into the action improperly and still have the bolt and trigger group put back into the shotgun. Everything can close up meaning you can place the trigger group into the shotgun and screw it into place (1 screw). The problem is you can still single fire the shotgun but its a bear to cycle the action like your stating. If I am correct its also hard to load a shot shell into the action. The carrier is also hard to push up. Thats because the cartridge stop lever is not correctly placed and pushing on the bolt.

Solution- The cartridge stop lever moves with the bolt as it cycles. There is a little circular knob on the back side of the lever. It fits into a drilled hole on the inside of the receiver. It can fit into that hole but not function. Make sure that when the knob is placed into the hole that the cartridge stop lever end closest to the barrel is higher than the back end or the end farthest away from the barrel. (I work on the gun with the barrel pointed to my left. That places the cartridge stop lever in plain sight when the trigger group is removed) Also I make sure that the cartridge stop lever pivits up and down freely. It only moves 1/8 of an inch but it moves. If its placed incorrectly I have found it will not pivit at all. I hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:22 pm 
Gunsmith
Gunsmith
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 907
Location: St. Louis area
The cartridge stop never touches the bolt, but is actuated by the action slide arm.

If the front tip of the cartridge stop is underneath the small "capture" lip groove at the front side of the frame (next to the magazine tube hole), it is impossible for a normally shaped part to cause a jam since it will already be in the rotation hole mentioned and located with the integral pivot boss in that hole.

If the part will move up/down before the action slide is inserted, free motion is assured for that one part.

If the front edge is NOT inside the locating groove, you would have a hard time even getting the carrier to fit alongside while trying to install the trigger assembly.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:57 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 am
Posts: 96
Like Hickoryhead, I found I could install the cartridge stop in a way that would make the gun hang up. I had the pivot boss in its hole, but did not have it properly seated or the cartridge stop properly aligned. The cartridge stop would not pivot through its normal range. Rather, it was stuck in the up position (toward the bolt) with the front of the cartridge stop farther out from the side of the receiver than it is supposed to be. As a result, the side of the carrier would hang up on the cartridge stop when the carrier cycled upwardly, hindering closing the gun. It took me many failed attempts to figure out the problem and discern the fine difference between installing the cartridge stop almost correctly and getting it in right.

However, as noted above, this problem did not prevent me from opening the gun. It only hindered closing the gun again, as the binding did not occur until the carrier started to rise on the forward stroke. So, I would doubt this is stewbert's problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 jamming
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:50 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:58 pm
Posts: 2
Hi: It sounds like the action slide is getting jamed on the action slide spring. This is a common problem for Mod. 12 with guns with in the serial number range of 1,200,000 to about 1,400,000. If this is the problem you will need to replace the action slide. Nu Line Guns has this part aviable . I think there current price is 99.95. Try them at 573-676-5500.

Bootsnhats


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