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 Post subject: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 1:26 pm
Posts: 6
Hi
i am new to your interesting site and would appreciate your advice
occasionally ,but more and more often ,the top barrel does not cock and I miss the target
reason being that i have not openend the gun sufficiently widely
I have to really pull the barrel down ,to hear the "click "of the cocking
I have attached the parts diagram -
SORRY CANNOT UPLOAD /DON'T KNOW WHY !!
the reason for that ,I think ,is wear between the cocking bar -part 112-and the corresponding cam on the forend -part 307-which pushes that cocking bar back to rearm the hammers (20 years of shooting !!)
On a parts diagram ,i can see a part called "catch bolt" -322-in the forend which presses against an insert in the barrel tube .
Does this part exist in different thicknesses/ If yes ,I would replace the existenf one by a thicker one ,to reduce the gap
is that right or do you suggest something else ?
thanks for your help
Peter
Peter




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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
Posts: 4694
Step one, check the cocking bar cam on the forearm iron to confirm that it's screw is tight, and the cam it's not moving around (read if you have to tighten it, make sure to loctite it as well.

Next check the cocking bar in the receiver to confirm that it's not loose in the slot. It should move freely front to back, but not a great deal side to side, nor up and down in the slot.

Lastly, pull the stock and cock the action open while looking at the sear to hammer relationship. Both hammers should catch the sears almost at the same time (about 5* short of the action maxed all the way open and when maxed all the way open, the hammers are over cocked past the sears). If they are not cocking at the same time, pull the hammers and check the hammers against the pins for slop/ pin wear.

Also to point out, make sure that the sears are getting setting correctly, and that the hammer is not riding back down with a sear failing to lock into the hammer sear (sear or hammer sear edges worn out) .

To add, if it is hard to open the gun, then chances are you are not lubing the trunions, the side of the barrel breach block, and even barrel forearm iron to the front of the receiver. Grease is used for such, and it should be wiped off and reapplied every time the gun is assembled and broken down. The receiver cocker tab and hammers to pins should be lubed with a light gun oil instead of grease. And if you don't know the round count of the shotgun (read could be above 30K rounds since it last service, now is the time to do such).


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:58 am 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 1:26 pm
Posts: 6
Many thanks for taking time and trouble to respond
I'll do the checks you recommend today
What should be fairly certain ,is that it is not lack of proper lubrication :10 years with Esso and 5 in lubricants !!!
As per your post ,I use moly grease ,light oil(for example just a touch of moly grease in each pin hole after each shooting session : no trouble with these in 20 years /30+k shots -no visible wear
I'll come back to you today or tomorrow


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 1:26 pm
Posts: 6
Hi
i am back ,as promised
I have done what you suggested and result is as follows :
-cam is solid ,not moving around
-cocking bar not loose in the slot art all :virtually no play sideways
- both hammers catching the sears almost at the same time :yes
BUT THIS ONLY HAPPENS WHEN THE ACTION MAXED OPEN
-no wear at all on hammer pins
-no hammer ride back /no visible wear on the sears ,still very sharp
To me ,all the detachable trigger mechanism is as new ,and the problem is wear at the contact point between the cocking bar and the cam (visible wear on the cocking bar front end ,now slightly hollow instead of being flat)
Don't you think that if we could add a few thoughs there,this would solve my problem?
if you think it would ,how to do it ?
-change the cam for a slightly longer one ? this would be the easiest solution
Does Perazzi make slightly longer cams ?
Once again ,i would very much appreciate your advice
Peter


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
Posts: 4694
If the wear is only on the forearm cam (no wear on the cocking bar either front or back), then the bar replaced with a new unit should put everything back into spec. But really, if the forearm cam is that worn, do yourself a favor and send the gun to Giacomo to go through it with a fine tooth comb if you are in the states.

When you get it back, the gun will be as fresh as the day it left the factory regarding the workings, and if you need the stock finish or bluing to be redone, it can be handled there as well.

With the cam that worn and the hammer cock timing that late, I can almost bank on the gun needing other parts as well, and wouldn't be surprised if the breach gap is too large from wear or the lock-up about toast, both of which should be addressed now anyways.

Bottom line, you have a $8K gun at the least, and a few hundred dollars to get it back to factory fresh should be a no-brainer. Better yet, if the stock or bluing needs to be refinished, your still under a grand for every thing, and if you didn't know better, you will swear that you are getting back a brand new gun.


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:38 am 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 1:26 pm
Posts: 6
In fact ,i like the gunsmithing as much as the shooting itself !!
i must do it by myself ,even if this involves trial and error ,even if it costs me more in the end :this is the way i am built (for example,none of our 4 cars goes to the garage !!)
I have carefully checked the angles as per your suggestion :
-as is ,hammers are cocked only at max opening - both ejectors work
-if i add a thin sheet of copper between the cam and the bar(from a 22 RF case),then I have a 2 to 3 degrees angle between cock and max opening(instead of your recommended 5),BUT one ejector does not click
If you are not bored to death with my queries ,i would appreciate your (final)advice
Peter


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
Posts: 4694
Please, before you waste a great deal of money on killing parts, send the gun in to be repaired. With the cam worn, I can almost bank on the barrel gap being too great, and that is translating back to to the problem as well. Save a few pins and springs on the shotgun, there is no true drop in parts on the gun, and each part has to be semi fitted so the gun works in unison.

Break a hammer spring (will need to be fitted) or lever spring, then replace such yourself. Need to pull the firing pins to clean them, the again not a problem. Working the barrel block and trunions so the barrel gap is correctly, reworking the ejectors so the timing is right, or setting sears, that's a whole different ball game and best left to the factory trained guys that do such every day so it done right the first time out.

Bottom line, the gun is in need of service, and may even be to the point of a rebuild. They will get everything a perfect at the day it left the factory, and if you want to wrench on the gun after that between servicing, then pulling it apart and cleaning and changing out the small stuff can be all your doing. Worst case, your looking at a few hundred dollars if they need to correct the barrel gap, and you probably would end up spending that much on parts anyways, and still not have it right.


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:59 am 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 1:26 pm
Posts: 6
All you say makes sense indeed :food for thought !
I'll do as per your recommendation
many thanks again for your precious advice ...and patience !!
Peter


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:56 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:47 pm
Posts: 245
I would have to second Dano's advice. I have not seen a Perazzi worn that way, but if a drop of lube was never put on the end of the cocking rod each assembly then it certainly is possible.
Most guns are precision machines. And even tho I identify and practice much like you, I also recognize the time for professional intervention. If you are in the West, Lucio Sosta at Perazzi USA is one of the two best Perazzi guys in the country. I also have had the good fortune to have Giacomo fix some things for me in the past and I would assume that he has left his business with his name on it in good hands.

WtS


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
Posts: 4694
Trust me, I have seen P gun not serviced/not taken care of and take to beyond not safe to shoot. I ever case, the beat to death worn out guns where sent in to be serviced, and not one was every to the point that it could not be saved. And the funny part, even the worst of them where still dirt cheap to be repaired when you considered the price of what it would cost to buy a new one.

Lube/grease/cleaned, not uncommon to have the gun go several hundred K until a major service is needed. Forget to do the above, and come one of the 30K services out the gate, your going to get handed a bill that may sticker shock you due to such.

To add,
1peter1, when you send the gun it, not a bad idea to get a few spare parts if you don't already have them. Hammer spring, lever springs, Firing pins and such are nice to have on hand if you ever have a problem with the gun. All are quick to change, and not beyond the common repair of the gun owner.


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:20 am 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 1:26 pm
Posts: 6
Hi All
i talked to the guy i brought the gun to : all action,pins ,trunnions,springs ,ejectors,detachable triigger...are as new
only problem is the cam which is worn (TLC over all these years :)
the wear is always in the same spot ,the lower end of the cam (gun horizontal),which is fairly logical since max pressure bnetween bar and cam is reached at that lower point
he explained that ,if the cocking bar is heat treated ,the cam is not to the same extent -by design ,so that it is a replaceable part
So ,new part ordered ,will be fitted next week .i'll let you know when it is done
thanks again to you all
Peter


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:17 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
Posts: 4694
Peter, I was thinking about this, and if I was me, I would still send the gun it to have the guys go over it. When you state new parts, and the fact that the cam is work out, it sounds like the guy was just throwing in parts as they failed, and may not have been thinking about the over all system as each one was throw in.

Again, send it in a let them go over the entire gun. There could be other parts that are on the way out, and when you get it back, it will be at a new gun level so you know where you stand, instead of second guessing what is going to be the next part to either go out, or what part is not fitted correctly and not up to spec, even if it was new.

And trust me, if a P smith installed the new parts, there is no way they would have missed the worn cam. One of the checks on the guns is over cock, and it would have failed such check a long time ago.


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 Post subject: Re: PERAZZI MX8 /TOP BARREL OCCASIONALLY DOES NOT COCK
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:19 pm
Posts: 21
Dano523 wrote:
Peter, I was thinking about this, and if I was me, I would still send the gun it to have the guys go over it. When you state new parts, and the fact that the cam is work out, it sounds like the guy was just throwing in parts as they failed, and may not have been thinking about the over all system as each one was throw in.

Again, send it in a let them go over the entire gun. There could be other parts that are on the way out, and when you get it back, it will be at a new gun level so you know where you stand, instead of second guessing what is going to be the next part to either go out, or what part is not fitted correctly and not up to spec, even if it was new.

And trust me, if a P smith installed the new parts, there is no way they would have missed the worn cam. One of the checks on the guns is over cock, and it would have failed such check a long time ago.


You can lead a horse to water; etc.




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