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 Post subject: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:18 pm 
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I have a 1920's Steven's model 105 20ga with all original parts. The gun is badly abused, and needs new stock, new foregrip, new firing pin, new trigger guard, and a new barrel plus some major TLC, bluing etc. The barrel is the Achilles's heel in this whole project. The barrel:
-has been clamped in a vice so the bore is ovoid
-has mangled muzzle, which could be cut down 0.5"
-is bent about 1/3 of the way down
-is severely pitted on the exterior

The barrel will never shoot straight again. I know this gun has zero value, but it would be a fun project, I could hone multiple skills, get creative (e.g. steam punk the hell out of it), and end up with a fun and unusual shooter.

I've found some other 20ga Stevens barrels, but none that are purported to fit a 105, 107, 106 or other identical action. The closest I've found is a 94C barrel on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stevens-94C-26- ... true&rt=nc

Other barrels don't seem to have the correct lugs. How does one remove the lugs from the existing barrel and attach them to the new barrel? Are the lugs brazed or hard soldered to the barrel? The foregrip lug appears to be brazed and crimped.

Here are pics of the current barrel.
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And some pics of the rest of the gun.
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I'm exploring all options.

I'm handy and have access to an excellent machinist, an excellent welder, a full machine shop, a full metrology lab and maybe even a wire EDM machine and CNC machine...

If you're a smith and want to take on the job, PM me so we can discuss pricing.

If you have a barrel for said Stevens model 105 - hit me up!




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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:48 am 
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No offence, throw it away, really.


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:04 am 
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No offense taken. Clearly that's prudent advice, I don't think anyone can argue with that. But to quote one of my favorite members here, DIYGUY: "the joy is in the doing". I'm not doing it because the gun has any value, personal or otherwise, I'm doing it to learn and hone my skills - and you must admit there's a lot to learn here! I've never made a stock or blued a part before, but I'm handy and curious and sure would like to try it. If I totally screw it up what have a lost? the gun's a basket case anyways...but I've learned something and had fun doing it.

Hoping someone might have tackled a "lug transplant" before and could offer some guidance. TIA!


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:24 am 
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Well I always root for the underdog,so since you are committed,the first step should be to straighten and un-ovoid the existing barrel.Two things are working for you here,one is that you have nothing to lose,the second is that metal "memory" will assist you in the effort.If is was "ovoided" in a vise you can best use a vise to make it round again,Carefully measure the bore in a round but unchoked area,cut a round plug from aluminum you can use to gage your progress.Feed the plug in from the chamber end until it stops,withdraw and squeeze the barrel until it will pass,then continue until you can make it all the way through(may need to start with a smaller plug and do it in steps) also you should straighten the barrel first, google for procedure.Good luck and keep us posted of developments.

Bobcat


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:55 am 
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If the barrel locks up tight and is on face. I would consider making a bunny gun, that is cut the barrel off making a mono block and sleeving it for a low powered pistol cartridge.

There is a following for the 32 S&W long or 38 Special handgun rounds. The frame looks as if a stock from a Savage/Stevens Model 94 would fit, from there the rest should be easy.


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:39 am 
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BobcatWelding, Jaguarxk120t,

Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure the barrel is salvageable even if I can bang, squeeze or bend it straight and circular - the pitting on the exterior maybe too deep, proof has been compromised?

Interesting idea to make a monoblock from the old barrel and braze or hard solder or TIG in a new (sleeved) barrel, hadn't considered that. The barrel does lock up tight and is on face, and the lug to receiver interface is in good shape, so perhaps this is a posssibility. I'd really prefer to keep it a 20ga scattergun though vs. converting into a rifled handgun or carbine round. A 20ga is more practical to me. Wonder if I could take a new 20ga barrel from a 94C or other Stevens, cut off the non-compatible lugs and turn the OD down to slip into the mating monoblock. That's exactly how modern shotgun barrels are manufactured so it _should_ be a safe and viable option - thoughts?

regarding stock, yes a 94C stock should fit fairly well but I'm thinking of something totally different. Imagine a mashup between a Scheutzen carbine and a Tony Cochran steampunk guitar.
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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:36 pm 
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Stay away from welding for the replacement,needs the flexibility of a dissimilar metal,welding cracks from vibration and thermal cycles.

Bobcat


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:30 pm 
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Bobcat thanks.

FYI - in this thread some dude repaired a loose barrel-monoblock joint with Loctite.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_1/379710 ... _Pics.html

I think if I go down the monoblock road, I'll stick to more proven soldering instead, like FullandFuller did. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=262156

Any classic Steven's afficionados that know how the factory lugs were attached to the barrel?


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 8:06 pm 
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Are you familiar with draw filing? Looking at the pics, I don't think the pitting is as bad as you think. Try draw filing over a few areas, if the pitting goes away or most of it does, fairly quickly, your barrel is salvageable. If so, start by straightening. Then work the oval parts out. Then strike up the rest of the barrel for a refinish. All of this is time consuming, and the obvious has already been stated, but it's also a good opportunity to learn by doing. Finding a smith who's nuts enough to take this on at anything considered reasonable isn't gaining you that experience. All that will teach you is how to waste money. Do it yourself. If you decide to do so, take it one step at a time. The processes I've suggested are far from descriptive enough to get these things done, but It would take a far too long response to get everything mentioned described in detail. If you do decide to make these repairs, I'll be happy to help in a step by step fashion as you go type of affair. Let's just take a little bit at a time or it gets too wordy.
Luck,
Jim

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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:02 am 
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I take it by "lugs " you mean the part that fits into the action . They could be brazed but could also be a forged part of the barrel . Swopping one for another has so many potential problems I would not even consider it an option


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:05 am 
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I take it by "lugs " you mean the part that fits into the action . They could be brazed but could also be a forged part of the barrel . Swopping one for another has so many potential problems I would not even consider it an option , sleeving a new tube into the original back end would be a better bet , simpler as well


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:25 pm 
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Thanks for the advice. by "lugs", yes I mean the part of the barrel that mates to the receiver. I'm not sure if this barrel was manufactured chopper lump style, it kinda looks like no. And for sure the foregrip lug was brazed, soldered and/or crimped to the barrel.

Indeed attaching lugs to a barrel in the correct position in 3D space a formidable task. Fixturing and precise measurements required.

I was not familiar with drawfile terminology, but had used the technique in the past. I'm a total file hack but it's a chance to practice a bit on an old beat up barrel. I have a small assortment of files in various grades which should cover most of the work. Here's a good tutorial I found this morning about file and restoration techniques on a Remington 141 rifle. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread. ... ng%85Metal
This also helpful: http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/hfile1.htm

Jim, thank you for your offer of guidance along the way - much appreciated!

I've got very little to lose by starting on the old barrel. I'll check out the pitting and go from there.

PS: I found a Stevens 94H barrel on ebay that looks to be almost identical... Anyone know of compatibility model 105 vs. model 94 family?


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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:45 am 
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I'm not certain on potential crossover on that. However, I did a little looking on line for potential parts. Numrich has a fair assortment in stock, should you need anything. Obviously, you'll need a stock. ANY expense on that is probably too much, but if everything else starts shaping up you might find an old one cheap enough. I will keep my eye out for something free, if possible. I thought I had one laying around here, but must have given the whole gun away when a friend needed a barrel for another project. I'll see if he still has the stock, and if it looks like it might fit. That trigger guard is another mess. It seems to have come from another gun, and was too large. It's easy enough to adapt that one when you get there. A little heat, a hammer, and a piece of pipe close to the right diameter as a form. Numrich wants $45 for that guard. This isn't Gramp's old gun we're trying to refurbish here, so too much $ to my mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:23 am 
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IheartShotguns wrote:
Bobcat thanks.

FYI - in this thread some dude repaired a loose barrel-monoblock joint with Loctite.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_1/379710 ... _Pics.html



He was an idiot and ruined a good gun Briley would have fixed under warranty.

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 Post subject: Re: Phoenix rising: possible to swap lugs to a newer barrel?
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:38 am 
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yes, Loctite is not the best solution. Most cyanoacrylate or epoxy based adhesives can get a decent steel-steel bond in the range of 10MPa (1450psi) shear strength, but that degrades with exposure to thermal cycles, and CA glues are not known for their fatigue strength. Contrast that to silver solder (even low alloy 96% Sn, 4% Ag) at >10000psi shear and the choice is obvious.

For my own future reference, here's some good info about brazing/soldering: http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/best_practice/

Regarding trigger guard, it is original - just smashed flat. I'm thinking of making a new trigger guard from brass or copper (maybe hammered and tarnished) or carved and polished aluminum anyways, but repairing the old one is also a viable option.

Jim, your thoughts are exactly aligned with mine. Gun has no value whatsoever, sentimental or otherwise, so spending a bunch of money at a smith or at Numrich doesn't make sense. The only "high dollar" purchase I'm considering is a donor barrel. I can get nicely figured walnut locally for $8/bf. True I'll have a lot of labor into this project if i proceed but I'm doing this purely for fun and as a learning experience.

PS: this weekend a friend offered his lathe for turning a monoblock and barrel sleeve. Pieces of puzzle slowly lining up.




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