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I tried a similar thread earlier. It mutated into a reloading thread. I’ll try again, with a short version.


I saw the quote below at another thread. I thought it good. Rather than hijack that thread, I posted it here.


When I started shooting registered skeet in that era referred to by Glenn. I only shot All bore for several years. All-Bore was the main event. It was Sunday afternoon.

That emphasis and schedule made it easy for the recreational and league shooter to take a simple first step into registered skeet. We were getting many new shooters taking that easy step. Now we don’t.

We also had a substantial segment of our membership that were just All Bore shooters. We no longer have that segment, and those members.

Tom is articulating something that merits further consideration IMHO. I remember those days too and the All Bore was the big prize, even more than HOA. Things have changed a little bit since then, but I would consider it an improvement to the game of skeet to eliminate the 20 and 28 and go with just the .410 and the All Bore events. The averages between the 28, 20, and 12 are basically the same now anyway so shoot the 20 or 28 in the all bore if you want. I would want to keep the .410 since, as I see it, the little gun has a much bigger interest and influence on the game now than it did back in the day.

I go back to that era, as well. The standard format for many 2-day shoots back then was .410/20 on Saturday and 28/12 on Sunday. This allowed plenty of space for all-bore-only shooters on Sunday, as 28 was uncommon. Sometime in the mid 90s the 'powers that be' decided to reverse the order at major shoots from shooting small-to-large to the current formula with .410 last, reportedly to keep shooters from pulling out because they blew their HOA chances in the .410

I typically go to 12 shoots a year, maybe 4 500 tgt events, a couple of 4x50s, and the balance 2-gun shoots. I don't see why stressing the all-bore would not work well for many clubs/events. I do not understand why clubs holding smaller shoots feel that they have to shoot in the same order as the big shoots where HOA is important, even if it costs them single-gun shooters.

That sounds great says MR NSSA! It worked before and it just might work again, he continues. I'll bring this to the "EC" and see what he says. The EC says that sounds great too. But, what do you want us to do about, it they ask.

And the answer is..............

Ralph, haven't you been paying attention?

There is no real shortage of skeet shooters, it's NSSA shooters that are in short supply. The problem is institutional in nature. The game has evolved from the All Bore as THE main event, to 400 & 500 target marathons every weekend. Like many others here I really do prefer 4x100 shoots, but I can also recognize that these very shoots are killing the game. I think that 4x100 skeet is the ultimate form of the discipline, but as attractive as 4x100's are to us they are like a stout spirit, a bit of an aquired taste and not appreciated by virgins.

There are a number of us here that have tried alternative programs at our clubs. They were mostly successful but got little to no notariety, and were all a bit fractured somehow. The Clubs went as far with them as they could. NSSA leaders failed to show any initiative to move the ball forward. Now once again the problem is that the clubs need a new(old) product from NSSA. NSSA has to get their stuff together and PROVIDE the clubs with a system that they can in turn market to the newbies. A one gun/one day game like SC. Make a big deal out of the "ALL Bore".

I don't want to hear why NSSA can't..... I want to hear about what they will do.

So I ask again - The answer is.................

NOW, (if I may step in here), This makes a lot of sense. The other scenario did not!

It's no secret that Recreational Skeet is alive and well. This is where we need to go, to draw the needed new participants into Registered Skeet!!!! Almost all recreational Skeeters shoot the 12 ga., but many do shoot the 20 ga. also. Doesn't matter one bit. Either gun will do nicely in an ALL BORE event.

Bravo!!! Get the All Bore event off the Saturday schedule, onto the Sunday schedule. Participation will be better. Saturdays are wrought with Honey-Do's and errands and shopping, and doing things that you cannot get done on work days. Except for Church, Sundays are usually free to the Shooters to participate. If necessary, hold All Bore events all day Sunday. If small bore events are wanted, they can be held on Saturday, for those that want to participate in them.

This will let the majority of those shooters that want to start participating in Registered Shooting, have an easy and economical way to do so.

Now this WILL work. With or without help from the NSSA. It will work, and any small club can easily do it as they see the need. Superb Suggestion.

DLM

In my neck of the woods 1 day 2 gun shoots haven't faired very well. I personally have no desire to shoot them, thats just me. As Ralph said its really up to the clubs to offer what draws shooters. If a program doesn't draw well it doesn't survive. When I started throwing $100, one day 4 x 50s I was told many of the old time established shooters wouldn't show. While there was some initial resistence the word got out quickly how pleasent these shoots were & they have flourished. Like it or not skeet IS an expensive sport but I feel it's biggest deteriment is TIME. 4 x 100s just have too much dead time for the "now" generation. Skeet is also a 4 gun game. After a guy makes the decision to pop for a tube set or the like he wants to use ALL of his new toy. Not go to a shoot and do 12/410 or what ever. For new shooters its much easier to become competitive for 50 targets than 100 target merithons. Earlier competitive success & in the present economic conditions lower costs keeps new and older shooters in the game. Remember, many of the shooters are really "contributers". The cost of 4 x 50s makes participation much less painful when you don't win anything but were able to compete. A good mix of 4 x 50s and 4 x 100s can only be healthy for our sport. Besides, if ya want to shoot two guns, sign up for two guns. Ric

I could see this scenario address a few issues....

Saturday: 50 X 28 ga, 50 X 410, 100 X 20 ga
Sunday: 100 X 12 (all bore), 100 X doubles (all bore)

Lots of good ideas here. Where do I start? How about here?

What can NSSA do? With this I agree with Ralph. NSSA may not be able to do very much. Glenn offered a few ideas. Others can likely come up with others. But the local cubs may be able to help. I won’t be easy for them. They’ll have to balance the convenience our current rotations and procedures offer the established 4-gun shooters, against the benefits of attracting new shooters. And a club may have shoots that are clearly intended for the 4-gun shooters, and so should be designed to meet the needs of those shooters. But don’t they have other shoots that can be more accommodating to potential new entries?

State organizations can at least do this, they can make it easier for all those 12 gauge club and league shooters to get to their State Shoot. All-bore on Friday afternoon, or early Saturday a.m. with Saturday evening shoot-offs doesn’t make it easy.

That could work, especially if the All Bore was Sunday afternoon. Maybe it could be Honors Only on Saturday, with "big prizes" for All Bore.

Part II -

That pretty much reminds me of the old PA State Shoot format. .410 and 28 gauge was on Friday. Saturday was 20 gauge in the morning and 12 gauge preliminary in the afternoon. Sunday, all day Sunday, was All Bore, and with an extra flight added to accomodate the All Bore only shooters. The 12 and 20 gauge shooters didn’t need to take a vacation day from their family. The 12 gauge only shooters had real choice. They could just drive up on Sunday, or they could make an unrushed drive Saturday and get 200 All Bore targets. We made it easy for them.

Count me in for backing this agenda. It is not the optimum fit for my personal shooting schedule, since I like to hit the road and travel home early on Sundays, but I see the potential added value and would be in favor of this format.

Allow me to bring up another idea for discussion which would help small shoots (under 20 shooters at two and three field clubs). On the local circuits, this scenario has become very common. Many times I have seen a 2-field shoot with about 15 attending wrap up Saturday’s 100-12ga and 100-20ga by 2:00PM. Out-of-town shooters, are left to return to the motel and watch cable TV for the next 5 hrs of daylight. I have pushed for these shoots to schedule a second set 100 (whatever gauge) as part of the shoot, but was told that the biggest obstacle has always been the regimented structure 400x400 HOA points and honors system.

This extra set of 100 (whatever gauge) would result in more revenue to the club, more target fees to NSSA and added fun for the shooters……just another idea.

I am interested in this topic and would like to contribute to this thread. However, I have no idea what an All-Bore event is. Would somebody please explain it to me?

Thank you,

Bruce

All-Bore or any-bore means you can shoot anything up to 12. This proposal doesn't change the game enough to make a difference in attendance. The barriers to entry, a tubeset and 4 reloaders are still in place, and it still takes all day, both days of the weekend. Making skeet easier isn't going to help, its already the easiest of the 3 target games, which is why we have to shoot so many targets to seperate the field.

Anybody who wants to write this program can do it now and see how well it works.

All Bore was the traditional, and possibly the 'official', name for what we call today the 12 gauge event. I can find no reference to All Bore in the current rule book. What's in a name? Maybe not much, but there was the suggestion in that name that it was open to all.

BTW - The 28 gauge was called 'small-bore' and the .410 was called 'sub-bore'. 20 gauge was called 20 gauge.

Trivial addendum - Back then the 'Small-bore' was often shot with 3" shells from a .410. I seem to remember stories of at least one World Small Bore Championship won with that combo.

Could you explain what you mean by this, please?

Thank you for the explanation.

Bruce

The more we emphasis we put on the "4gun game" the less likely we are to attract new shooting members. The investment in equipment to participate should be minimized for the newb's who are already recreational shooters. Cheap promo loads and a gas gun are all that should be asked of the newbs we want to bring into the game. Once you begin pushing the 4gun aspect you spoil chances of keeping that prospect. That doesn't mean you do away with the 4 gun game - you smply place more emphasis on the All Bore on Sunday. Let natural attraction take it's course, and on it's own schedule. Eventually some of the All Bore shooters will investigate the sub gauges and take the next steps. Let them have fun.

Those of us that shoot the 4 gun game know it can become a chore at times even for some of the best shooters. Just asked eiderz and smokebald, looks like the fun went away for them. Hopefully only temporarily though.

Good post Glenn. You made my point better than I did. Thank you.

So many shooters did not want to invest in a 28 ga gun back then that Winchester produced a 3" 3/4 oz #9 .410 shell that was labeled Skeet.

Smokeball, that is why I sugggested we try All bore and .410 only. It gets you to the same place in half the time with one tube set and two reloaders. I would not object to adding the international sequence too so doubles could be eliminated as an event, but that has been run up and down the flagpole enough where I usually keep quiet about it.