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Yep. Been there, done that. Like Glenn notes, back then shooters often went from one gun to four guns over several years, one gun/gauge at a time. When I was deciding whether my next gun would be 28 or .410, I chose .410 simply because with those 3" .410s I could shoot 28 gauge too.

Much simpler solution to all of this...........just make a rule that shooters may enter any shoot one gun at a time, and then they will shoot what they want. Yeah, I know, OMG, think of how imposed on the shoot management will be, aw shucks, what a trade off. I know I would shoot lots of shoots if they did not force me to shoot 4 guns, so I could come and go as I please and not be forced to shoot when i would rather go do something else.

Say what? Now I have to deal with that sob of a cashier twice on Sunday? And if I feel like going on Saturday I'll just show up knowing that the shoot manager was telepathic enough to get enough referees and food and.....

Seriously - I would only go to ONE of those kids of shoots. And that's just to day I did. My time is more valuable that to wait in line 3 extra times.

On the other hand Blooch makes a valid point. Pre-registration is sometimes limited to 4Gun shooters. That we even have pre-registration is a debatable topic, let alone restrict it. Oh yeah! I forgot the food and the referees. I guess we need to count heads before we begin to do anything afterall.

As one of those insensetive and uncaring volunteer shoot managers, now there is a great title, I take a little exception when shooters and in some cases non registered shooters trash us. With quality referees ranging from $100 to $150 a day a small three field club will often have to commit to 4 refs for 2 days with an up front outlay of $800 to $1200. Add doubles on friday and say 2 refs you can add maybe another $150. Then there is the food and folks to load machines and all the grounds keeping, target setting etc. Then if anything goes wrong its "poor management".

Other than the big shoots deposits have gone away so the host club accepts all the financial exposure. To use a gambling term we "bet on the come." We're asked to fill the limited rotations with shooters who want to shoot one ore two guns leaving unfilled the "undesirable" little gun spots. This so we can bring more shooters into the sport. What should we do? Have the 4 gun shooters, the backbone of registered shooting by the way, fill in the left over slots?

I put a tremendous amount of time and effort along with a bunch of other volunteers into putting on the best registered skeet shoots we can. I do it for the sport and the dedicated shooters who support it. Here is a news flash that may be unpopular but so be it. Bringing new shooters into the game is of no concern to me when I hold a shoot. As a shooter thats your job. Its up to me to put on a shoot you want to bring new shooters to.

Lastly for those who want two gun, three gun, one day,two day all bore or what ever. Instead of telling those of us doing shoots what we're doing them wrong and how to change it get off your butts and host a shoot. Try your methods set your rotations. If ya really think yours is a better way then do it and prove it. And before the trashing begins if any of what I have posted here offends you maybe there is a reason. If not then you've probably been there. Register early and honor the commitment. Remember the host club committed to you months ago by scheduling their shoot. Ric

grumpn...you are right (and well named!). While I have never shot one of your shoots that I am aware of, I have worked (for free) a lot of our local shoots. So, I know the amount of planning and labor required to pull off a good clean shoot...it is a lot and requires a lot of people.

The very first 4H shoot we put on we found out real quick it ain't easy to make everybody happy....it's even harder to shuffle squads and events around to accomodate a few shooters who just want to shoot this event and not that one. So, we do give fill the squads will all events shooters first....if there is an open slot we can plug in a single event shooter, if we don't we can't. Our mind set has been to host a small but very well run shoot....not try to please everybody out there. Most leave happy, a very few leave ticked-off...the shoot is always booked solid.

It's a tough job, I'm glad there are guys like you around that make it happen! Every registered skeet shooter should work at least one shoot....just to get their bitc! card stamped!!

Herein lies the problem with skeet..........if you are the recreational shooter shooter who has one or two gauges and that all you want to shoot, the game is not made for you at all, nor is it in anyway accommodating to anything less than 4-gun shooters. And we wonder why folks do not make the transition or do not stay once they get registered.

I fully understand the problems with putting on a shoot, the refs, food etc. We have to face it, if we want recreational shootersto come to the shoots we currently put on, predominantly 4 gun shoots, we are going to have to make some inroads for those who do not wish to be 4 gun shooters to start with in their registered careers and those not interested in shooting all 4 guns, but are interested in shooting bigger shoots.

It is the attitude that the game is a 4 gun game period that is killing numbers right now.

Most shooters who shoot one or two guns don't care whether food is provided, are willing to take a place on a squad whereever they can get in, and want a fair shot at competeing, and that's about it. They know that they might have to wait around or stand in the registration line more than once. If a cashier/shoot manager cannot or will not accommodate this, then it is the game's loss, something we have failed to notice over the years.

Blooch you're absolutely correct. Todays skeet is not 2 gun friendly. ITS A 4 GUN GAME. If 2 gun shooters want to do 2 gun shoots then they and they're supporters will have to put them on. Trust me, the 4 gun shooters sure won't change their ways. The success of the 4 x 50 format is a direct result of monetary and time "belt tightening" & the desire to shoot all four gages. I've never turned a 1 or two gun shooter away after filling a shoot with 4 gun shooters if there was an opening or late cancellation. If a 2 gun shooter wants to progress into full skeet participation he'll find a way but if he or she wants to remain a 2 gun shooter they'll have to find someone to support that shoot venue. I'm not out to fuel a pissin contest & I hope this thread has many contributors so we can brainstorm ideas but most of the other conversations about our sport center around how to make the 4 gun format more economical and shorter in duration. Right or wrong the vast majority of registered skeet shooters look at the game as strictly one of 4 guns and if pressed will admit they aren't in the slightest willing to change the game to accomadate 2 and three gun formats. Two gun shoots, 3 gun shoots or all bore will be accepted as a part of the game if someone wants to put them on but in the end its ALL ABOUT 4 GUN shooting. Successful shoots survive the rest don't. For now its up to someone to put on some of these 2/3gun/all bore shoots, be successful and tell the rest of us how to do the same. Kind of "don't tell me, show me". Good luck. I mean that. Ric

In general I have to agree with both of you guys, with a few exceptions. NSSA skeet is dying a little bit more each year. I've brought several enthusiastic shooters into the game as I'm sure many others have. Sadly, when these enthusiastic newb's realize the extent of our commitment they draw back. Most all of them either already had tubesets or were hunting for one. I'm somewhat embarassed to admit that a shooter having a tubeset showed me a commitment, I was wong, it only showed that someone was willing to spend money to purchase the tubeset.

The commitment we have made to NSSA skeet is much more than a few $K invested into a tubeset. It's the time during the week and nearly every weekend on a practice field. It's the commitment to travel more than a couple of hours several times a year to get to those 4 gun shoots. It's the commitment to a partner or team to travel. It's the sometimes selfish commitment we make at the expense of family outings that most newb's have a hard time with. However, Ric's remark about 4Gun shooters being unwilling to settle for less than the standard 4gun shoots sound about right, but IMHO that's not something to be proud of.

I think the current decline in numbers make it pretty plain it is not all about 4 gun shooters. It is true that is just about all the game has left, so it would appear that the statement is true, but I think that would be, and is, an incorrect conclusion.

If we look at who is still shooting the registered game, it is primarily those who have shot 4 guns for several years or more. We seem to be getting very few new faces, but losing old ones with regularity.

I would also note that while some shooters were going to quit anyway, I think we have surpassed what would be expected here from year to year for several years.

I do not think it would be a good idea to just consider the actions of those who still shoot the registered game with much frequency as what we hope to use as a model for the future.

If the game is a 4 gun sport, someone please explain to me why we can have 1000's of 4H shooters shooting one gun skeet, and not even 600 shooting the minimums in 4 gun registered. Something turns most of them off to the NSSA version of the game.

I have bolded the part of your remarks that struck me. Is this a pie in the sky number, or is it a number out of the Directors book?

As of November 1st, 2009, there were 1,202 registered shooters who had shot their minimums. I assume there are many more who will be added to the list on the 15th. I don't know where blooch got his numbers, but I got mine from the NSSA Points Race link.

Bruce

Definitely appears a paradigm shift is required.

Back in the day when the 12 gauge event was on Sunday......one of the main reasons I heard more than once for the format change....moving the 12 gauge to Saturday was because of the length of the 12 gauge shoot offs on Sunday late in the day. People wanted to hit the road and head for home and the 12 gauge shoot offs were taking too long. So the 410 event and 410 shoot offs were moved to Sunday because those shoot offs tend to be shorter.

Well....this might be true if Wayne Mayes and Todd Bender are in the 12 gauge shoot off going through 27 boxes to determine a winner. But was this REALLY an issue for the 3 field Club in "Armpit" Oklahoma that might get 30-40 shooters at their shoot?

But....NSSA changed the format so those marathon 12 gauge shoot offs could be on Saturday and not on Sunday when people wanted to head for home. And all Clubs everywhere followed suit when perhaps there wasn't really a need for them to do so.

Did everyone at the smaller Clubs hosting smaller shoots change their formats too so Mr Bender and Mr Mayes wouldn't have to endure the marathon shoot offs on Sunday afternoon/evening? I wonder when the last time was that those 2 gentlemen...or others of their calibre shot that 3 field Club in "Armpit" Oklahoma?

Seems to me if Sunday was 12 gauge only....everyone who wants to play could...the event would be over fairly early...and shoot offs that last a box or two could be completed early enough for people to head home at a reasonable hour. I'm not sure I can remember the last time I've seen a shoot off in any gauge go more than a couple of boxes at the 30-40-50 shooter shoots that I attend.

That 3 gun on Saturday....12 gauge on Sunday format sounds kinda interesting.

Sadly, you could be right. If so, it sounds like a fast track the life support status predicted by Smokeball. And as Smokeball noted, our life support will only last as long as NSCA and the Sporting shooters are willing to pick up the tab.

Old vet - You make a lot of good points.

To the list of reasons you state for 410 on Sunday afternoon add, that since you and I started this game, class shoot-offs have become common, and shoot-offs for concurrents and class concurrents, plus lucky draw shootoffs, and handicap HOA shootoffs, and BCDE shootoffs. All those make for a late Sunday night. And the Sunday 410 does make for a better HOA race to the finish line.

There are shoots where that format makes sense. I thought the move to Sunday .410 made sense, and I supported the idea. But the Law of Unintended Consequences always seems to intrude uninvited. Everything is always a question of trade-offs. So there are shoots where Sunday 12 gauge makes sense and there are some where it doesn't.

But Grumpn makes me think our membership won't make that trade-off....ever.

Ok, excuse me, only about 600 shot the World. Even with 1200 shooting minimums in '08, there are many times that shooting one gun 4h skeet in the country. It will be interesting to see what the number for those who shot minimums in '09 is.

My point about the whole 4 gun vs one gun thing is that either of the skeet games biggest competitors, sporting and trap can be shot competitively with just one gun. There are side games of small gauge in sporting, but they are not the main avenue of competition inthe sport.

So when we, as a whole, tell new shooters they have to shoot 4 guns, it is quite natural that they go look into games that do not require the initial equipment outlay to be competitive. These games cultivate them and they are lost to skeet. My fear is that it has gone on so long that it has killed skeet.......the phenomemon is too entrenched to be overcome by the few that recognize it.

Blooch,
That is a very good post. The content is right on. I have shared this idea for a long time, but since I am a 2-gun shooter by choice, I never talked up an agenda that would have been perceived as selfish to my own needs.

For those that have never met Blooch, I can tell you that he did not just fall off of a turnip truck. He has been a big part of traditional skeet for longer than I want to remember. The fact that he is bringing up this 2-gun deficiency should open a few eyes.

This year I managed to squeeze in 1,800 targets with 12, 20 & Doubles Events. If it were not for the good people that I know that run shoots on the Texas circuit, I would never be able to get into some shoots and I seldom get squad and time priority. Being a devoted Skeeter, I know my place and I settle for any slots that I can be squeezed into. My point being, a new shooter with no club and organization connections will usually find themselves up against a brick wall trying to pre-register in 1 or 2-guns.

There must be a way to add something like the “all bore” with Doubles Event or an “all bore” with a mixed in ISSF format, and still maintain the sanctity of the traditional 4-gun shoot.

Blooch is also on to something by pointing out the fact that 4-H skeet shooters are lost to other shooting sports. Some of you remember how I was seeking Skeet Stat breakdowns by states and concurrent. I had noticed the high proportion of young lady shooters on 4-H / SCTP and College Skeet Teams, and I wanted to track where they were ending up. Most of these Ladies do not quit shooting, they just gravitate to other sports. That doesn’t say too much for our “know it all” attitude.

Skeet shooters are like the proverbial horse in a burning barn. They are comfortable with what they know and aren't willing to change, even though the writing is clearly on the wall that the sport is gut shot, staggering off to die a slow and painfull death.

Somebody or something needs to put a blindfold on them and get them out of the stall, but the old guard is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming.

Where skeet is today, why it's loosing members and what's wrong with it isn't really what this thread is about.

Let's get away from trying to CHANGE the sport to make it a vehicle to recruit shooters to specific PARTS of our game. Case in point. When I tried to get 4 x 50 shoots started in my neck of the woods there were many nay sayers & sceptics. Some long established shooters said it wouldn't work & refused to participate. "You'll never replace 100 target events with 4 x 50s." was heard often. They were right but only to a point. You see, they couldn't perceive of 4 x 50s as supplementing and adding to our game. The perseption of replacing 100 target shoots was all they saw. Long story short, 4 x 50 shoots have become a solid part of retaining current & attracting new shooters. Almost all the clubs in my area now hold 4 x50 shoots. Some in addition to their previuosly held shoots and some replacing a 4 x 100 with a 4 x 50. Interestingly one club that holds no 4 x 50s and sticks with the 4 x 100 format draws 13 to 20 shooters for shoots that could handle 45. Other clubs have found it much easier to fill the 4 x 50 shoots and have managed to closely maintain their 4 x 100 & 5 x 100 participation in part due to holding 4x 50 shoots & have been surprised by the 4 x 50 participation. If we are to have any chance at all of retaining our registered shooters and even recruiting new b's I firmly believe the 4 x 50 format has to be in the mix. This year its 5 x 50s for me as well. For me its about 4 guns for $100 and all in ONE DAY. Time and money are our sport's biggest detractors. Four by fiftey shoots attack both head on.

Some here have talked the talk. Now its time for some to walk the walk. Put together a format, put on a few shoots and make them successful. Not to change the sport but by enhancing what it offers. Success breads success. If there really is a market for the shoots suggested here then participation will replace the conjecture about need. This is where the bugs should be worked out before the first shooter steps out to try to compete in a new (for our time) format. Ric

I want to leave no impression that I take credit for the 4 x 50 format. I think Al Gore probably already claimed that. A huge amount of the formating & presentation of the 4 x 50s I have offered the shooters in our shooting area came right from this site. It was here the seed was planted. Its a great resource for ideas and moral support. Ric

This thread is a very worthwhile discussion of the "State of the Sport"...from the perspective of a relatively new Reg shooter, 4x50 and the All bore concepts make a great deal of sense...
Our Club has recently re-opened and this month my two Registered Squad mates and I organized an All Bore 50 target Fun shoot (non-registered) which drew 14 shooters...we are going to hold them once a month through April...our hope is that we can evolve into a one or two gun Reg shoot next year....its a start and the 10 or so shooters that were new to competition had a good time...a few of them are going to be potential new members for NSSA...

4x100 shoots will still have their place but having smaller shoots will attract new shooters and hopefully be a feeder system for the bigger shoots...FWIW..