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 Post subject: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:41 am 
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Location: Kettering, England.
I am after a ballistics program that helps to work out how much speed and energy is left in a shotgun pellet downrange for different sizes and muzzle velocities.

If anyone could help please {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:11 pm 
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Ask and ye shall receive. :D

Here you are:

http://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.com/do ... istics.pdf

Actually, it's not a "program" or formula, but rather it's a table with the velocities, energies, drop, time of flight, etc for various target loads.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:00 pm 
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That's a good table for target shot.

Some of the other stuff, not so hot. The choke data is OK, but only for a 12ga. The table in the lower right corner is really suspect....you can't compute recoil energy without taking into account the shot velocity, which isn't listed. To get 12.5 ft/lbs in a 8.4 lb 12ga the 1 1/8 ounce load has to have a muzzle velocity of only 1,000 fps. And who would shoot a 3.5" shell with 2.25 ounces of shot through a 6.5 lb gun??

If you can be more specific....#6 shot? #5? at 40, 50, 60 yds? I have some tables I can dig out of my files.

The only programs I can link you to are for recoil energy.


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Gee, it's really unfortunate that the tables I posted a link to don't meet up with your standards, Mike. But after all, I didn't write the tables. I just posted a link to what someone else wrote...... even though it won't answer ALL questions that someone may ask and even though a few of the numbers on recoil (which wasn't even asked about) are a bit suspect.

Perhaps after you locate your 100% complete and 100% accurate tables you'll be kind enough to post them for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
Gee, it's really unfortunate that the tables I posted a link to don't meet up with your standards, Mike. But after all, I didn't write the tables. I just posted a link to what someone else wrote...... even though it won't answer ALL questions that someone may ask and even though a few of the numbers on recoil (which wasn't even asked about) are a bit suspect.

Perhaps after you locate your 100% complete and 100% accurate tables you'll be kind enough to post them for everyone.


I very much appreciate your contribution to this topic , but I must admit I am hoping to find something that allows me to enter my own values, bigger slower shot etc.

Nevertheless thanks for the link {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:51 pm 
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You're welcome. Sorry that it wasn't exactly what you were looking for, but I'll bet that you could do some extrapolating and estimating from the data given and come pretty close. Good luck.

If you have a few specific numbers or values you would like, post the criteria and let's see what someone could come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:24 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
You're welcome. Sorry that it wasn't exactly what you were looking for, but I'll bet that you could do some extrapolating and estimating from the data given and come pretty close. Good luck.

If you have a few specific numbers or values you would like, post the criteria and let's see what someone could come up with.



My thoughts are in relation to some low velocity loads I make for moderated shotguns (legal over here). They are 1080 FPS muzzle velocity and in a 28 gram load only appear to be equal to maybe a 21gram standard velocity load of say 1300FPS if you compare the kinetic energy of the whole payload as one lump.

Going up a shot size and a choke size seems to give them a fair killing range per pellet but I wanted to crunch the numbers for maybe 5s and 6s down range.


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:42 pm 
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How about this.

If a 7.5 (English) @ 1300fps has a muzzle energy of 4.7ft lb and a no6 @ 1080fps has a ME of 5ft lb, how do they compare at say 35- 40 yards?

That's the kind of thing I am trying to find out, will the slower heavier pellet hold its energy significantly better etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:14 pm 
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I'm betting that the bigger pellet still has higher energy at the full range, and the difference gets greater as you increase distance. Especially since it starts out higher M.E.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Why? Shotguns kill from multiple hits not single pellets. That's why choke is important. Pattern density runs out before pellet energy goes below some unspecified unacceptable level. If one pellet was all it took, everyone would be shooting straight cylinder or even spreader loads at max range.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:22 pm 
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Sounds like you need John Taylor, Shotshells & Ballistics. Try Amazon. Floyd in Vienna


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:31 pm 
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sitsinhedges wrote:
How about this.

If a 7.5 (English) @ 1300fps has a muzzle energy of 4.7ft lb and a no6 @ 1080fps has a ME of 5ft lb, how do they compare at say 35- 40 yards?

That's the kind of thing I am trying to find out, will the slower heavier pellet hold its energy significantly better etc.


Hawglips has an excellent program that shows the penetration of various sized pellets and pellets made from various materials. I know it includes muzzle velocity and downrange velocity and possibly the energy too. I sent him a message and I hope he can post on this subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:00 pm 
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sitsinhedges wrote:
How about this.

If a 7.5 (English) @ 1300fps has a muzzle energy of 4.7ft lb and a no6 @ 1080fps has a ME of 5ft lb, how do they compare at say 35- 40 yards?


In this example, at 35 to 40 yards (or ANY distance for that matter), the #6 will have more energy than the #7.5 pellet. This is due to two main factors. First, the heavier pellet will hold its velocity better at distance than a lighter pellet. Second, the faster any pellet leaves the muzzle, the faster it slows down. So I would expect the difference in energy between the 2 pellets to be even greater (percentagewise) at 35 to 40 yards than it is at the muzzle.

As for actual numbers, I expect the #7.5 to have about 1.4 ft-lb energy at 35-40 yards, and I expect the #6 pellet to have about 1.7 to 1.8 ft-lb energy at that same distance.


Quote:
That's the kind of thing I am trying to find out, will the slower heavier pellet hold its energy significantly better etc


Absolutely!

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
Quote:
That's the kind of thing I am trying to find out, will the slower heavier pellet hold its energy significantly better etc


Not because it is slower, but because it is heavier and has more energy to begin with, and will loose the energy at a slower rate due to the increased weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:50 pm 
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sitsinhedges wrote:
How about this.

If a 7.5 (English) @ 1300fps has a muzzle energy of 4.7ft lb and a no6 @ 1080fps has a ME of 5ft lb, how do they compare at say 35- 40 yards?

That's the kind of thing I am trying to find out, will the slower heavier pellet hold its energy significantly better etc.


I think what you need is Shotshell Ballistics for Windows created by Ed Lowry and Keith Garner, but apparently it is not available retail anymore.

There's some relevant discussion here if you want to wade through it.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/shotgun- ... istics.php

This is not exactly what you're looking for but I find it useful because I only hunt upland birds and do like a standard velocity for my hunting loads.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:15 pm 
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from the lyman #1 manual
The slowest speed listed for #6 shot is 1135fps me 5.55, 20 yds 3.19 , 40yds 2.08, 60yds 1.45
7 1/2 shot at 1295fps: me 4.63, 20yds 2.30, 40yds 1.38, 60yds 0.92
These are the closest to your question


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:38 am 
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Sitsinhedges, sounds like you'd like the KPY Shotshell Ballistics Program. It's got all of what you are looking for. You just plug in the type shot, speed, payload, etc, and you get all kinds of good stuff back.

http://shotshellballistic.blogspot.com/

Quote:
As for actual numbers, I expect the #7.5 to have about 1.4 ft-lb energy at 35-40 yards, and I expect the #6 pellet to have about 1.7 to 1.8 ft-lb energy at that same distance.


Comparing lead 7.5s at 1300 fps MV with lead 6s at 1080 fps MV, you get the following 40 yard results (at 5000 ft alt and 32 deg. F):

#7.5s...energy 1.31 ft lbs....Energy Density 184.9....ballistics gel penetration 1.36"....final velocity 684 fps
#6s......energy 1.91 ft lbs....Energy Density 200.7....ballistics gel penetration 1.61"....final velocity 663 fps


Quote:
Not because it is slower, but because it is heavier and has more energy to begin with, and will loose the energy at a slower rate due to the increased weight.


And just to show how pellet density trumps pellet size, pellet weight, or pellet (MV) speed --comparing the #6s to an even slower (1000 fps), lighter, but more dense 18g/cc pellet you get the following:

TSS #8s...energy 1.94 ft lbs....ED 304.7...ballistics gel penetration 2.55"...final velocity 709 fps


Last edited by hawglips on Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:52 am 
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Here's another comparison at 40 yds, showing how more energy doesn't necessarily mean better penetration:

Steel #2, 1500 fps MV
energy 4.77 ft lbs....ED 269.9...ballistics gel penetration 1.92"...final velocity 782 fps

Hevishot Goose #6, 1250 fps MV
energy 2.59 ft lbs....ED 272.7...ballistics gel penetration 2.08"...final velocity 743 fps

TSS #9, 1240 fps MV
energy 1.59 ft lbs....ED 315.9...ballistics gel penetration 2.42"...final velocity 766 fps


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:35 am 
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hawglips wrote:
Sitsinhedges, sounds like you'd like the KPY Shotshell Ballistics Program. It's got all of what you are looking for. You just plug in the type shot, speed, payload, etc, and you get all kinds of good stuff back.

http://shotshellballistic.blogspot.com/




'Ere ya go!

Most excellent. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Terminal Energy Calculator Req'd
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:54 pm 
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hawglips wrote:
Here's another comparison at 40 yds, showing how more energy doesn't necessarily mean better penetration:

Steel #2, 1500 fps MV
energy 4.77 ft lbs....ED 269.9...ballistics gel penetration 1.92"...final velocity 782 fps

Hevishot Goose #6, 1250 fps MV
energy 2.59 ft lbs....ED 272.7...ballistics gel penetration 2.08"...final velocity 743 fps

TSS #9, 1240 fps MV
energy 1.59 ft lbs....ED 315.9...ballistics gel penetration 2.42"...final velocity 766 fps



Atta Boy!


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