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 Post subject: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:57 am 
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i noticed on imr's website they don't list any loads with 700x and cheddite primers. i'm imagine they have loads for cheddites and 700x and say just to subsitute the load data on another brand of primers. was wondering if anybody knows what primers they say to use the load data for with cheddite primers? are the cheddite primers as hot as the win or STS 209's? they list load data for fiocchi primers but i don't want to enlarge my primer pockets.

friend gave me some of his 700x loads to try today and there were two. both are 17.5 grains of powder. one was in an STS hull with a rem fig 8 wad and he marked it at 1150 for 1 1/8 oz. the other he uses AA hulls and a AA white wad and marked it at 1200 for 1 1/8 oz. haven't shot the hotter shell yet but used the STS loads from both 16 and 25 yard and they seemed to work well. i'm assuming the load data gives more pressure and velocity with the AA hulls and wads and with the same powder charge you get 50 more feet of velocity. so he just changes hulls and wads to get a hotter load and leaves everything else the same. simple system and he's won a ton of championships in my are using it. he didn't mark what the primers were though. this fella is an excellent shooter and has been doing this for over 50 years and is pretty precise in his loading. he weighs his loads and just doesn't use the marked bushing. weighs every 25th shell to make sure nothing changes

if i use downranges versions of rem fig 8 or AA wads will they give me the same performance as the rem or win brand possibly with a little powder change?

anybody with load data or advice on cheddite primers i'd appreciate it. i heard they were harder and tended to break firing pins. was trying to save a few bucks by using cheddite primers and downrange wads over the rem and win brand if they worked well

thanks




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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:13 am 
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Use the win 209 primer data, and stay away from max working pressure loads with the subsitution.

If you do want a clone primer of the win 209, then that would be the Noble sport primer since they are loaded to the same spec as the win 209 primer (and will not kill FP's).


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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:28 pm 
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i found out my friend puts win 209's in all his loads. he leaves his press alone and throws the same powder and shot and only changes hulls and primers for a hotter load.

17.5 of 700x and 1 1/8 of 7 1/2's in a STS hull with a rem figure 8 for 1150 fps and he shoots it from about 20 or 21 yards or closer

17.5 of 700x and 1 1/8 of 7 1/2's in a AA hull with a win white for 1200 fps and he shoots that load ALL the way back to the back door of the clubhouse in shootoffs, and wins a bunch of them with it.

this all started because i bought a new reloader after not rollin my own for almost 15 years or whatever and was moochin shells from friends that i know shoot well so i could shorten (and make it cheaper on myself) the search for a good general powder and he gave me two boxes of each of these loads. i shot the 16 yard stuff the other day and it did well and today tried a box of the handicap loads and did well with them also. we shoot the identical gun so i was hopeful they'd shoot well in mine and they seem to.

now i'm curious to know if i swapped out the win 209 primers for cheddite andand the rem and win wads for downrange equivalents if they would be the same? i know they should be comprable but will the be the SAME??? :--) and what would be the killing power if i use #8 shot for the shorter load

ain't loadin your own fun... :--)


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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:52 pm 
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No, I doubt it will be the SAME, and so what if it isn't? All this hocum, to quote old Geo. Herter, about having to have exactly the SAME stuff loading shotgun shells is tomfoolery. Use a combination of components that are available to you at a price you are willing to spend and load them up to the performance you want and don't look back. Myself I've settled on using 18.2 gr of Promo with DR XL-1 wads in any Remington/Peters hull way back to the RXPs and any AA hull, any color CF or HS.

No, I've not patterned any vs any factory load or loads I used to load using Fig-8, and most every other 12 ga wad available in the free world. If I do my part, the shell does it's part. I've never ever chronographed any of that recipe, just shoot them. I've done the math and for what it's worth 100 fps one way or the other from a more or less standard 1,200 fps target load is negligible. You nor anybody else that shoots trap will be able to tell the difference. We're talking inches, and not many, at 35 to 45 yds difference in point of aim, and we don't aim shotguns anyway! Getting exactly the same results using different components and even getting the exact same performance out of the same type of gun is not a given either, Just because your gun and his are the same brand and model etc, etc, doesn't mean they will pattern or shoot the same, they might, but.....exactly the same.

Define same.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:54 pm 
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Do you like the loads?

If the answer is yes, then leave them alone. 8)

That is a very old and very proven combination that your friend is using. I used it for quite awhile, back 15 to 20 years ago until I started shooting 1 oz. loads.

Anything you change will change the load in some way.

The wad change I wouldn't be too concerned with.

The primer change....... you buys your ticket and you takes your chances.

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:55 pm 
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smoke'

I forgot to address your question of the Cheddite primers. I've used several thousand of them over the years with good enough performance. I'd say on a pretty much the same performance as the WW209. Some folks say they are a bit hotter, but I really have no reason to believe that. The several reasons I try my best not to use them is first and foremost, the French seem to be getting a bit to big for their britches in the world arena again. I wonder where we will have to bail them out of trouble again? They did stretch primer pockets on a few of my hulls, and then I did have a piercing issue with the firing pins on my then spanking new SIG/Rizzini TR-20 28 ga. That chapped my hams!

I'll only use them if I have no other alternative. Right now I've got plenty of Fiocchis, STS209s, Nobel Sport 209s, and WW209s. I leave the last 2 cartons of Cheddites sit on the shelf. Maybe someday I'll use the up? Now 700-X? It has been a staple of the target load component mix for decades. Red Dot and 700-X are the two prima dona target load powders. You can do far worse!

BP

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:06 am 
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i was tryin to save a couple of bucks by usin the cheddite primers. the win 209's are about 8-10 bucks a thousand if i get them from my club. the downrange wads also save a couple of bucks a thousand. i don't think the downrange wads would change performance al lthat much, but i'm not so sure about the primers. and i don't really want to stretch my primer pockets out because i don't want to keep track of which shells have stretched pockets as opposed to which one don't. enough stuff to keep track of without wondering if the primers will fall out....:) also, i hear you about where the cheddites come from. in my past life i worked a lot in europe and know well the attitude of them towards us here. people can say whatever they want, but lets just leave it at they could be a little nicer to americans.... i guess havin a kid in afganastan right now who has to deal with nato and the french military world doesn't help my perception. hope people don't jump on me for this comment, but last i noticed i'm still allowed to have my opinions without getting taxed extra for it. of course, that may change too in the future if they can figure out how to get away with it....

but the only primers i have access to throught the club are either win, rem, or cheddite. i guess i'll use the wins. i've heard that fiocchi and cheddite can break firing pins too so the few extra bucks isn't a big deal. i can get win, rem, dr, or claybuster wads and i've read that the claybusters leave the gun more gunked up. although, i would assume that cleaning a shotgun is kinda academic if you shoot one.... does the claybusters leave it ''harder'' to clean?

i'm pretty sure i'm gonna start with the 700x loads and win 209's and was wondering if the performance difference between the DR and factory wads was negligible? i would think any of that combination would make for good shootin loads....

thanks for the advice


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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:09 am 
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If firing pins are inexpensive for your gun and if they are easily obtained and installed, Cheddites may be for you.
Removal of wad residue can be a big PITA and some guys have had to spend hours to get it out. I have probably shot 25-50K of Downrange wads without any wad residue in several guns. Apparently some barrels will collect more Claybuster goo than others, I have several guns that collect goo from Claybusters but not from Downrange. As you can expect, your results can vary, but the difference in price between CB and DR will not sway me away from DR. Besides, I consider Kevin a friend that I never got to meet face to face, but I hope to. If I have to spend money for a product, I just as soon give that profit to a friend's company.

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:30 pm 
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i've never heard anything bad about DR and have heard many good things about them. i have a ported barrel trap gun so i'm thinkin wads get treated like cheese going through a grater anyway. but i have heard that claybusters are made from recycled plastic and it tends to leave more gunk in the barrel. like everybody else, if i can save a few bucks i'd like to do it.... if i ever feel that by not using the factory wads i'm handicappin myself i'd switch but i doubt that will ever happen. actually, i doubt that i'm the right person to be able to tell if they don't work as well unless they REALLY don't work too well. and we're only talkin about 5 bucks a thousand in price difference from my club.

to be honest, i'm the type of person who feels that by standardizing and practicing a lot with a purpuse will help me more than using a certain factory wad. i'm bettin that DR's wads are good and i'll probably never be able to tell or find that the wad is hurtin my shooting and not me myself and i that's makin me shoot crappy...

i'm still tryin to decide if i want a get a adjustable charge bar instead of just a few mec bushings.... my brain keeps saying to me ''if mec thought the adjustable was the better way to go then why don't they sell it themselves...???? but it seems that it might be better to fine tune things with an adjustable than with a fixed bushing. but maybe a couple or few tenths of a grain of powder doesn't really matter???? i have to leave that question up to more experienced loaders than i am right now. i seem to remember i used to have an adjustable one for my grabber and thought it was more trouble than it was worth.... but thats been a long time ago and maybe they've changed. one extra charge bar for 1 oz loads and 10 bushing is still cheaper than the universal. i guess the big question is whether the universal is more exact and if it's more consistent.... opinions are as always welcome from people more experienced than myself


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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:15 pm 
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I use a Universal Charge bar in one press, I learned how to set it, following their instructions. This is a fine point that many users neglect to do and it is critical to maintaining consistency. Some of my favorite folks have tried the UCB and do not like it for whatever reason, others seem to love it. You ned to know that sometimes a new one needs a bit of massaging and shining to be real usefull. They can be roughly finished but Mr. File can slick it up.
Myself, I never try to convince someone to use one for those reasons. I also like to use a red PC baffle on the powder side. Same deal, some likey some not.

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:21 pm 
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hey curly... what exactly do you mean by ''slick it up...'' you mean a little filing or do i need to break out the torches? my only reason for using it would be to get more exact and consistent droppings. i'll only use two shot charges... 1 and 1 1/8. ya think i might be as well off with just the mec bushings? at least i wouldn't worry about it changing on me.... :)

i will weigh all my weights on an electronic scale and choose the bushing that gives me the closest to what i'm after. what exactly do you mean by a red pc baffle? who makes them? do you mean the red plastic ones made by DR or the metal ones? i've heard the red plastic ones work very very well and it's a good idea to put one on the powder bottle and also the shot bottle. are they just a tube? i thought i read that the ones that are made by multiscale have a spring or something in them?

thanks for your help


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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:52 pm 
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smokemeister25 wrote:
hey curly... what exactly do you mean by ''slick it up...'' you mean a little filing or do i need to break out the torches?
A file is probably the most you would need, not all of them have this issue. My 2 did not.
my only reason for using it would be to get more exact and consistent droppings. i'll only use two shot charges... 1 and 1 1/8. ya think i might be as well off with just the mec bushings? at least i wouldn't worry about it changing on me.... :)

Follow the setting instructions and I suspect that you will not have issues with changing
i will weigh all my weights on an electronic scale and choose the bushing that gives me the closest to what i'm after. what exactly do you mean by a red pc baffle? who makes them? do you mean the red plastic ones made by DR or the metal ones?
Yes, the Red PC Baffle that is in the DR catalog.
http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product.php?productid=3605
Gamaliel sells them. I use them to discourage powder drool and migration.

i've heard the red plastic ones work very very well and it's a good idea to put one on the powder bottle and also the shot bottle.
I am encouraging everyone that reads this to not install a baffle of any kind on the shot side of any MEC press.
are they just a tube?
NO!

i thought i read that the ones that are made by multiscale have a spring or something in them?
Both kinds of baffle have a spring
I will not encourage the use of the Multiscale metal baffle by anyone, even someone I don't like. I ain't that mean

thanks for your help

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Last edited by Curly N on Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:59 pm 
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smokemeister,

I do not use an adjustable charge bar, I load almost everything on a Pacific/Hornady kind of machine. I wouldn't spend my money on one even if I had a mec that would take one.

Shotgun ammo is not that effected by a few tenths of a grain of powder like a bug-hole varminter or match rifle. Get a bushing that drops pretty close to what you are wanting and call it good. If you don't exceed the heaviest powder charge for the payload you are loading, don't sweat a little more powder. If you are wanting to drop 16 gr of 700-x and your bushing drops 16.6 gr, don't worry about it, they list 700-x in the same application all the way up to 18 gr. Same deal if you drop a few tenths light, so what?

The adjustable charge bar likely will not make any difference one way or the other relative to consistent powder drops. That all has to do with consistent technique or process. An adjustable bar or a bushing will be effected by that. Operate the machine the same each and every stroke, use a red plastic powder baffle and never let your powder jug get too low. There is a mark on the MEC jug, it's for a very good reason.

Yes, the red plastic baffle by DR is the same as the old PC baffle. Downrange bought out Pattern Control, (PC) some time back. Stay clear of the pot metal one.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:21 pm 
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i think technique wise i should be about as exact and repeatable as is possible. i bought an automate and it should be very close each time it strokes as another.

i'm leaning towards using the mec bushings. i'm more interested in repeatability that adjustability... i'll weigh each bushing and use the one that gives me the closest to the amount i'm wanting. two shot weights is all i'll load and once i find the ''magic'' load i'll stick with it forever.... mec lists their bushings as being about .6 of a grain different. anybody think .6 of a grain is gonna ruin my load.... :) as long as i'm under the maximum load i should be close. the UCB get much closer than .6 for a 17.5 load of 700? if it's always lite wouldn't a little sandpaper on the inside solve that problem since i'm always gonna weigh them out anyway? i'd just have ''custom'' bushings. each batch of powder may be different anyway. we're only talkin about 2.50 a bushing if i screw one up


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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:22 pm 
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Priced bushings lately?

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:22 pm 
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Curly's right, it's $7.50 bushing!

I have lots of "custom" bushings. I buy all the little ones I can lay my hands on for cheap and I have a lathe in my shop. I've got aluminum bar stock too, or I could use steel, brass, maybe even plastic?

Pacific/Hornady bushings are far easier to make than MEC bushings though, you'd be better off buying and modifying rather than building from scratch.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:23 am 
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here's a place that's sellin bushings for 3 bucks each and bars are 11 http://www.greentophuntfish.com/browse. ... 2,552.html i have a local store that's about the same price. my press comes with one bar and a 29 ,30, 32 bushing and i thought if i bought a 1 oz. bar and 5 more bushings it would cost about 25 or 30 bucks which is still cheaper than one adjustable one. what i really am interested in though is if the adjustable one would let me fine tune the powder charge closer than the mec bushings which are supposedly about .6 of a grain and throw it consistently without it taking a half hour or more to adjust it each time.... it's consistency and exactness i'm interested in more than being able to throw a ton of different loads

i think i'm just gonna have to invest 35 bucks into a multi bar to find out whether it'll do what i want it to. hmmmm... i wonder if i hate it if it's returnable?


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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:40 am 
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smokemeister25 wrote:
here's a place that's sellin bushings for 3 bucks each and bars are 11 http://www.greentophuntfish.com/browse. ... 2,552.html i have a local store that's about the same price. my press comes with one bar and a 29 ,30, 32 bushing and i thought if i bought a 1 oz. bar and 5 more bushings it would cost about 25 or 30 bucks which is still cheaper than one adjustable one. what i really am interested in though is if the adjustable one would let me fine tune the powder charge closer than the mec bushings which are supposedly about .6 of a grain and throw it consistently without it taking a half hour or more to adjust it each time.... it's consistency and exactness i'm interested in more than being able to throw a ton of different loads

i think i'm just gonna have to invest 35 bucks into a multi bar to find out whether it'll do what i want it to. hmmmm... i wonder if i hate it if it's returnable?


It is quickly adjustable, repeatable within the limits of the media being measured, and is adjustable to closer increments than the bars and bushings.
Follow not the adjusting instructions, previous statement is called off. BTW, locking the setting with the allen key, not required if you snug it down so that drag is present. You will understand this sentence once you read the instructions. If you ever used a milling machine, the instructions will make perfect sense

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 Post subject: Re: question about cheddite primers and 700x powder
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:12 pm 
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kevin lewis from DR called today just to talk about cars, and i asked him what he thought of them and he said he has one set up on a machine and likes it and thought i would to. so, i'm just gonna order one today. it's no biggee if it doesn't work and i'm pretty sure it will. i'll just look at it as being fun to get it workin right..... :) kevin said to just throw about 10 loads through it to make sure it's set right. i also ordered a powder baffer from him and i hear that helps quite a bit.

who sells them for the beat price. i can buy one for 35 bucks locally plus tax. i'm thinkin if i order it the shipping will be more than i'd pay in tax anyway...

i'm anxiously waiting for my automate... supposedly MEC was shipping it this week.




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