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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:20 am 
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Posts: 126
Banshee in Tex wrote:
Okay I work on radios for the AF, so I am no stranger to "combating" ESD. Most of our work benches are directly grounded however. I don't not have "close" access to my water pips or I would ground there. If I opened my breaker box would the ground stand out at me or is this a bad idea. Should I for get grounding my bench and just "dryer" sheet it.



Thats your ground you will be going too. Or any ground on any circuit

But if you understand ESD, you know you want to bleed off the current slowly. Or you get a shock. Shock with explosives is bad.




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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:56 am 
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Bruce,

Having a separate ground is O.K. and the 12 gauge wire will do for this application, but for a house ground or small shop grounding, 6 gauge copper wire is highly recommended. My phone interface box has a 12 gauge wire, as well as my internet provider interface.
I have seen where there are metal water lines in an older home, that has a new plastic water meter, but no one put a jumper connecting the pipes.
If uou don't know how to identify a ground rod at your home, walk around your house, if what looks like a 1/2" crusty copper colored rod is sticking of the ground with a wire attacted to it, you have found your ground rod.
The currently standard that seems to be enforced everywhere I have been in the states, is a 5/8" x 8 foot long copper clad with a mechanical attachment (called a knuckle) for the ground wire from what ever your grounding.

If you open your breaker box and don't understand what is there, put the cover back on the box. But you should be able to see a bare copper wire that vanishes into your walls with out any other wires. That is most likley your house ground. Your last ditch effort if you want to do it yourself is really a simple one, open up a wall box outlet that has the three hole plug receptacle. Turn the power off and look for the bare copper wire or in some cases it is the wire with the green plastic jacket. Attach to that wire with a mechanical clamp. If you are not comfortable doing this, hire an electrician, that is licensed and/or bonded. This person will not be cheap, but your house will most likely not burn down from a bad wiring job.

Jerry

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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:01 am 
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Posts: 2002
cfjohnson wrote:
During last nights loading session I noticed a fairly inconsistent powder drop and some static charge (strangly in only remington hulls). What are some of the best ways to ground a MEC? Just an aligator clip on a piece of wire? Or plug it into the ground of a wall socket?

OP - Reading your post carefully, I see your problem is (or certainly appears to be) the same as what I experienced (always Rem hulls, also occassionally 1x-fired Wins and NEVER RIO's. Go figger.) and from which I deduced the 'problem' was with the hulls, NOT my press. Accordingly, I simply spritz a light mist of anti-static spray from a dollar-store aerosol can, appprox. 12-18" over the pile of hulls from which I'll be drawing. Not enough to make any part of the hulls 'wet' mind you, and; this fix has effectively SOLVED the same problems I was having, as you describe them. Disclaimer: I still hang a 1" strip of dryer sheet in my powder bottle but, only as I got into (and have not gotten out of) that habit before I latched onto the idea of the aerosol. I know the aerosol is more effective as, even when using the dryer sheet, large qtys of powder would often "jump" all over and cling everywhere (but the the bottom!) of the insides of my Rem hulls. Definitely ground your press if it is adviseable to do so. I just wanted to let you know: a) I never have, and; b) the aerosol trick has solved all my static problems. Best o' success!


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:14 am 
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Location: Abilene, TX
Your last ditch effort if you want to do it yourself is really a simple one, open up a wall box outlet that has the three hole plug receptacle. Turn the power off and look for the bare copper wire or in some cases it is the wire with the green plastic jacket. Attach to that wire with a mechanical clamp.

Read more: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=247714&start=20#ixzz1DBxyBecb


This is what I had planned. If I were to put a resistor inline, what value would be best.


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:52 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Hartford, WI
Last night I grounded my MEC to my water line after reading these posts and I noticed a difference right away. My powder drops are now more consistant and I dont have powder sticking to the inside of the bottle. Great advice !!


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Location: South Central MO Ozarks
You can try the dryer sheet and see if that works for you. It does for a lot of folks. If not, I'd try grounding to an outlet before I'd open the breaker panel.

Good luck, Bruce

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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:15 am
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you can't ground static. but you can sure try. good luck with it


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:13 pm 
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quartering wrote:
you can't ground static. but you can sure try. good luck with it



You come work with me for a day quartering and I'll have you touch an
un-grounded bin we just filled with plastic resin and then have you touch
a grounded one and see if you have the same opinion.

You can ground static, been doing it for 30 years.



Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:30 pm 
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http://www.electrostatics.com/page2.html

Something other than yes it does; no it doesn't

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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:10 pm 
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As I under stand ESD prevention, you are not "grounding" the static so to speak. You are grounding your work surface. By doing such you are giving the static a path of least resistance to ground. That way a static discharge is through your bench and to ground instead of into the sensitive electronics or in this case gathering inside the plastic powder bottle.


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:56 pm 
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I can only assume that quartering's statement was meant in jest or has some special meaning I don't understand. I worked safety in Army ammunition plants for a number of years. I can assure you that static elimination and the grounding thereof was a major portion of the program and was taken very seriously. Everything was bonded together electrically and grounded with earth grounds that are checked periodically, with strict records kept and checked. We didn't even allow visitors to many portions of the plant unless they were wearing conductive footwear or special grounding straps that fastened around the calf and went to a conductive strap that wrapped around the instep. Further, ALL personnel had to grab the "static" bar when they entered the room to discharge any differing potentials between them and ground.

If quartering meant that statement in earnest, he is completely mistaken. Grounding works, and works well, in the elimination of static build-up.

Bruce

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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:44 pm
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Location: illinois
My loader sits on a wooden bench with no metal around and I have loaded for 20 yrs with no ground and no powder baffle. You guys got me baffled?


Last edited by stevinator on Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:38 pm 
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i'm grounded, but i still have static. i'm dumbfounded, but good luck with it


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:04 am 
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Posts: 126
Banshee in Tex wrote:
As I under stand ESD prevention, you are not "grounding" the static so to speak. You are grounding your work surface. By doing such you are giving the static a path of least resistance to ground. That way a static discharge is through your bench and to ground instead of into the sensitive electronics or in this case gathering inside the plastic powder bottle.


And its not a direct ground. Its bled off slowly. I keep trying to warn folks on here, but it just amazes me.


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:05 am 
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Plastic comb and small pieces of Kleenex tissue paper. Comb hair to build charge pick up paper with the charged comb. Ground comb to the central screw in the cover plate perhaps. What happens?

I did the experiment in high school fifty plus years ago. I did it again recently while reading the previous static electricity thread. If any experimenters try I'm curious to read your reports.

I am off to the surgeon tomorrow to get my second hip replacement. So it may be a while before I can check back unless my I-Touch works with the hospitals wi-fi. Then we can start a tread on the interaction between my silver and gold fillings and the new titanium parts with plastic liners. Perhaps I can send direct reports to the Seti project as I become a better EMR receiver. At least I am nonmagnetic. Glow in the dark... perhaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:42 am 
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Will a MEC press mounted on an Auto-Mate that is plugged into a grounded outlet take care of the static issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:59 am 
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Our main bench in the WC was an ESD bench, and it was directly tied to the grounding bus bar, which was directly tied to the grounding rod out side. We wore wrist strappes directly connect to the bus bar. This was signed off be CE as correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:28 am
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Location: Sandston, Va.
dogchaser37 wrote:
oldphoneman,

Yup, but......................................

At the same time if a guy isn't sharp enough to know that the water lines in his home are plastic and that you can't use them as a ground, he will never notice the static problem with his powder.



In my time as a phoneman I have run across this. Outside of the house someone cleaned the copper pipe near the spiget and attached his ground clamp(looked really nice had a do not remove tag and everything). Little did they know to look underneath the house for plastic. This home had a ground as long as water was in the pipe. But if the water ever drained out- well no ground. Someone had replaced a section of copper with plastic. LOL a true FLOATING Ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Banshee in Tex wrote:
Our main bench in the WC was an ESD bench, and it was directly tied to the grounding bus bar, which was directly tied to the grounding rod out side. We wore wrist strappes directly connect to the bus bar. This was signed off be CE as correct.


As a person who helps design these, and works with ISO9000 ESD guidelines, I guarantee you for you, its not just a direct ground with zero resistence. If you want, I can point you to the IEEE ESD library.


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 Post subject: Re: Static problems and grounding a MEC
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Location: South Central MO Ozarks
quartering -

A couple of thoughts for you. First, ensure that your ground is effective. By this, I mean electrically bonded to your machine. Sometimes paint or other materials can block an effective connection. You don't state where your static causing a problem. Also, make sure your ground is good. To what are you bonding your ground wire? Water pipe, duplex outlet, etc.? Are you seeing excessive powder on the sides of the bottle, getting erratic drops, etc.? Knowing that might help trouble-shoot the issue.

Bruce



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