ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:35 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:06 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:38 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Minnesota
I sliced a 12 ga 2 3/4" Winchester Super Target in half and it looks the same as the Winchester HS illustration in the Lyman 5th ed., except it has a white base wad instead of red. I know the Super Targets are not the best quality hulls, but am I right to think it would at least be safe to substitute once-fired Super Targets with any recipe for AA compression-formed or HS hulls? Thanks.



_________________
It may look like I missed that bird, but actually I was practicing selective flush-and-release.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:20 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5788
All the Winchester hulls (including the non-AA junk hulls) load with AA data.

Are your hulls AAs? If not, I'd throw them away.*


* Note: every time this topic comes up there's a certain poster that sings the junk-hulls' praises and shows photos of how they can potentially be crimped. But keep this in mind: Winchester recommends you NOT reload these, and those that ignore that advice frequently have crimping problems. So make your own decision.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:38 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:19 am
Posts: 20
Location: carmichael CA
x2 for them being junk hulls. they don't crimp worth a poop.

_________________
I shot a werewolf once, and before I got to it, the sneaky [email protected][email protected] changed back into the neighbors dog.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:48 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 12953
Location: Covington, WA USA
Crimpability of a hull has more to do with component selection and press adjustment than it has to do with the hull type, - be it a Federal promo, Fiocchi, Rio, or Winchester Universal or Super-X....

Image
Image

And just as you discovered, the internal contour is identical to that of a AA HS:
Image

However, the base wads are different in that the base wad in the Universals and Super-X's don't have the additional external sealing barbs on the outside like there is on the AA HS's:
Image

I read the text/context of the Winchester memo differently than some here do, - it says that they "don't consider them reloadable", - no where does it actually say to "NOT" load them, or that they do "NOT" recommend loading them. In fact, the word "recommend" doesn't even appear in the memo (nor does the word "NOT"). The word "recommend" is a term being attached to, and "inserted" into this subject by certain posters in this forum.

But, reloading of the Winchester Universals, and Super-X's is probably not something that a newer reloader should be doing anyhow, - it should be left to the more experienced reloaders. Simply put, if you have to be asking about them here, then you probably shouldn't be reloading them, at least that's the advice that you'll most likely always get from some posters here in this forum, of which, isn't necessarily bad advice. You don't need any single concrete, or "documented" reason for not wanting to load them, as none exists.

Attachment 1:
Image
Image source: re-sized image link posted by Curly-Nohair on Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:05 pm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:46 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:38 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Minnesota
So, the only major concern with the Super Targets is whether or not I get a good crimp? I don't have any actual AA's to work with, so is there any harm in seeing if the Super Targets will work? I'm just trying out a few hunting loads, not planning to crank out a lot of target shells. If I try a few Super Targets and the crimps look good, is there any reason to expect them not to work just fine? Thanks.

_________________
It may look like I missed that bird, but actually I was practicing selective flush-and-release.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:26 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 12953
Location: Covington, WA USA
The same disclaimer that applies to the reloading of any two-piece hull also applies to these hulls. That is to say, any hull with a separate base wad, be it paper, cardboard, or monolithic resin has the ability to lift and possibly dislodge itself from the headstamp area. How far the basewad can lift, and the possibility of it ejecting itself into the barrel creating an unsafe condition for the next shot has been, and will always be the topic of great religious-like debates on this, and any other forum.

There are those who say that the addition of the extra barb (outer ridge) on the base wad of a authentic AA HS was put there to help minimize any potential "lifting" of the base wad, whereas the cheaper, Super-X hulls don't have this, and thus why the Super-X's shouldn't be reloaded. I do not myself subscribe to this perceived fear whatsoever, as some of these same people making these claims also reload and shoot the Federal promotional shells with paper/cardboard base wads, which actually have been known to eject themselves into the barrel, and in one known case here in the forum, has happened to a member of the forum.

Some folks mitigate any/all of this via 3 basic technique categories:

1) Reload any such hull with a separate base wad only once, and discard after wards.
2) Only shoot such hulls through a break open gun so you can look down the barrels.
3) Don't reload these types of hulls period.

Personally, and without getting into a saga of testing, debates, and discussions, I only practice #1 above, and more so because I have access to unlimited supply of once-fired hulls, and so there really isn't any need for me to reload two-piece hulls more than once.

I shoot them out of autoloaders, and pumps, and I do not check my barrels. I load Rio's, Fiocchi's, and Super-X's and Universals.

After that, yes, crimping quality will be your main concern, specifically component selections. With the thinner hull tube plastic, it makes component selection and press adjustment more critical in that they are less tolerant to loads that require any amount of wad pressure, and/or less than optimal press adjustments. The loads that you see pictured above required no press adjustment whatsoever when switching between reloading Remington STS's and Gun Clubs and the Rios, Fiocchi's, and Universals/Super-X's. Only the components were changed.

There is no reason to expect that these won't shoot just fine for you if you are able to get them loaded and crimped correctly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:55 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:34 pm
Posts: 403
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Personally, I wouldn't reload the Super Target hulls. I have had four base wad separations on factory Super Target loads in 20 ga. In fact, I just today sent a letter to Winchester, with one of the separated tubes and the top of a box of shells, asking them for a refund for my remaining shells. Thankfully, none of the following rounds would chamber after these hulls separated. I had to push them out of the barrel with a rod (and they came out very easily).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:29 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11785
Location: Kansas
Or, you can stick with Remington hulls and just forget about the basewad worry. At my club, all of the gun club hulls that anyone could possibly want are there for the taking. I've pretty much converted all of my reloading to Remington hulls (except for sub gagues). I can routinely get 7-8 or sometimes 10 reloads from Remington STS and Nitro Gold. I reload my AA HS hulls once and then toss. However I do have some friends that reload them multiple times without a problem. But, as I've said before, if just one in a million of those base wads comes loose, I'll be the lucky SOB who gets it!!

_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:08 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 1:53 pm
Posts: 2029
Location: MD
Not directed at any post or any-one, but why load "junk hulls"? Maybe I'm luckier than most but it seems like I can easily scrounge 50-100 Gun Club hulls on any given day at any of the ranges I shoot at. 20's are less common but they're out there too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:58 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 12953
Location: Covington, WA USA
Photos ??

Red Pill wrote:
, none of the following rounds would chamber after these hulls separated.

FYI, - an exited/ejected base wad won't prevent a round from being chambered. A base wad from a 20-gauge AA/Super-X, when dropped into the chamber of a Browning Citori stops under it's own weight at 2.7 inches, - further in than the length of even a spent hull:
Image
Image

In an Remington 1100, it drops in under it's own weight at 2.4 inches, - plenty of room for a loaded shell measuring 2.31 inches to be chambered:
Image

Red Pill wrote:
, with one of the separated tubes and the top of a box of shells,

The UPC/Product/bar/date code(s) is on the bottom of the box. The whole box should have been sent in.

Red Pill wrote:
I have had four base wad separations on factory Super Target loads in 20 ga.

After the first time, then after the second time, then yet again after the third time, what would possess you to do it again for a fourth time before stopping, regrouping, and looking into what might just be happening ?

Could you by chance be talking about a situation where the metal headstamp was pulling off instead ? (leaving the hull in the chamber), because I don't believe for a minute that what happened to you 4 times was a base wad exiting a factory 20-gauge Winchester Super-X/Super Target hull.

Additional discussion and research on base wads in 20-gauge Winchester hulls can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=242269&start=60


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:10 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:38 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Minnesota
steveziv wrote:
Not directed at any post or any-one, but why load "junk hulls"? Maybe I'm luckier than most but it seems like I can easily scrounge 50-100 Gun Club hulls on any given day at any of the ranges I shoot at. 20's are less common but they're out there too.


The only reason I'm messing with them is that I want to try out a couple of hunting load recipes that call for Winchester hulls, and I don't have real AA's to work with. I only plan on reloading them once and then throwing them out. If they obviously are not good, I'll use something else.

I have Gun Clubs, too. If I were reloading for target shooting I would use those.

_________________
It may look like I missed that bird, but actually I was practicing selective flush-and-release.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:58 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:34 pm
Posts: 403
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Republican wrote:
Photos ??

Red Pill wrote:
, none of the following rounds would chamber after these hulls separated.

FYI, - an exited/ejected base wad won't prevent a round from being chambered. A base wad from a 20-gauge AA/Super-X, when dropped into the chamber of a Browning Citori stops under it's own weight at 2.7 inches, - further in than the length of even a spent hull:
Image
Image

In an Remington 1100, it drops in under it's own weight at 2.4 inches, - plenty of room for a loaded shell measuring 2.31 inches to be chambered:
Image

Red Pill wrote:
, with one of the separated tubes and the top of a box of shells,

The UPC/Product/bar/date code(s) is on the bottom of the box. The whole box should have been sent in.

Red Pill wrote:
I have had four base wad separations on factory Super Target loads in 20 ga.

After the first time, then after the second time, then yet again after the third time, what would possess you to do it again for a fourth time before stopping, regrouping, and looking into what might just be happening ?

Could you by chance be talking about a situation where the metal headstamp was pulling off instead ? (leaving the hull in the chamber), because I don't believe for a minute that what happened to you 4 times was a base wad exiting a factory 20-gauge Winchester Super-X/Super Target hull.

Additional discussion and research on base wads in 20-gauge Winchester hulls can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=242269&start=60


I think you misunderstood. The tube was left in the chamber. The base wad and the head were ejected, sometimes fully, sometimes hanging up on ejection.

The lot number was on the box flap. They should be able to figure it out from that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:53 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 12953
Location: Covington, WA USA
Red Pill wrote:
The base wad and the head were ejected,

Ok, well, if the base wad was still in the head, then the base wad didn't separate (semantics).

I've never heard of a 20-gauge hull tube (factory or reload) completely breaking/blowing in half above the base wad, but hey, I wasn't there, so what do I know. I've seen this happen in many-times reloaded .410, and maybe 28-gauge hulls, but as I say, never in 20, and never in a factory, so this is new to me.

But good luck, - let us know what Winchester says.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:24 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:34 pm
Posts: 403
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Actually, the base wad did separate from the tube (semantics). The base wad did not separate from the head, but was still attached to the head. The tube did not break above the base wad. Instead, it pulled loose from the rest of the hull and remained in the chamber.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:53 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 12953
Location: Covington, WA USA
Red Pill wrote:
The base wad did separate from the tube (semantics). The base wad did not separate from the head

Whatever dude ...


Last edited by Republican on Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:08 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:34 pm
Posts: 403
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Republican wrote:
Red Pill wrote:
The base wad did separate from the tube (semantics). The base wad did not separate from the head[/b], but was still attached to the head.

Whatever dude ...


And back at ya.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:05 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 12953
Location: Covington, WA USA
Ok, so if I understand this correctly now, you are saying that you had the sheet metal headstamp with the base wad still in it in one hand (as pictured below), but the empty, hollow yellow tube still in the chamber, is that correct ?

Image

So where I have trouble with this is, is the fact that the base wad is crimped in the hull tube with the edge of the tube molded and folder over the bottom edge of the base wad as shown in the above photo.

I just don't see how the tube can pull away, overcome the folded over portion of the base wad without it (the tube) taking the base wad with but leaving the base wad floating unsupported and only hanging to the metal headstamp by just the primer (which doesn't take much force to separate).

I also wonder why it is that an empty, thin wall hull tube would remain in the barrel, - what was holding it in there with enough friction much force that a rear-ward moving base wad wouldn't pull it all of the way out.

Lets say for the sake of argument that, due to a Q/A problem, the folded over lip shown above didn't get folded over the base wads on the batch of shells that you got. In my tests here (and reference the included thread link in my post above), I find that the base wads in the AA's, and Super-X's has SO much of an interference fit in the hull tube, that even if there were a mere 1/8th inch of the top of the base wad still in the hull tube, it's takes many MANY ounces (pounds in some case) to get it to pull loose from the hull tube which is still in the chamber.

Further that QA/manufacturing problem to envision a situation that maybe only 1/8th inch of the hull tube was under the sides of the metal head stamp (extreme worst case scenario). That still puts well over a half inch of the base wad still in the tube! I don't see it possible that the friction force of the primer holding the base wad which is floating freely in the head stamp to pull the base wad out of the hull tube.

Maybe it's an ignition thing, maybe it's a gun thing, I dunno know. Maybe it was an autoloader (configured for full automatic?) where the mechanism is/was trying to pull the hull out while the shell is still under pressure and in the middle of ignition.

There's just too much information missing from your account to speculate any further. It's also reasonable to think that the folks at Winchester would also want to know all of the details surrounding your situation, but it's also not unreasonable for them to just send you some free shells to shut you up, and make your complaint go away too.

But you did the right thing by contacting Winchester. Although, photo's would have been nice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super Target = AA HS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:05 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:34 pm
Posts: 403
Location: Fort Worth, TX
It surprised me, too. Nonetheless, that is what happened. The end of the tube was square, with a very slight curl to it, as if it broke at the point where the crimp over the base wad began. I can think of manufacturing issues that would weaken the tube there. The gun is relatively new with only a few hundred rounds through it. No problems with any other shells. I was also surprised that the tube slipped so easily out of the chamber when I pushed it out from the muzzle. I really expected to have to exert some pressure, but didn't have to use much more than the weight of the aluminum rod.

Sorry I didn't take any pictures to relieve your worries. :lol:




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: amboy49, bcraig, Bing [Bot], bkusna15, buckeyejim, buckshot45, cheecho1960, cole1, cormacf, elpato, Feeeetask!, fmwyatt, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, GrooGrux, HenryVac, jimbloomfield, John H, JoM, Jwith68, liveblues, Majestic-12 [Bot], NailNinja, oldshotty, Rockett0, Rooster booster, Skeet_Man, skeetsit, SnowRider1, Steeler [Crawler], Stuck-N-Kali, Terrapin, wboonn


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice