Hello. I purchased a Precision Reloading "nylon" roll crimp to load short shells and am having some problems. First, how much hull should I have above my overshot wad to form the crimp? Also, forming a crimp is taking a lot of pressure and time, this is not supposed to be the case. Instructions say 2 seconds and light pressure. What am I doing wrong? Thank you.
You should have about 3/16" to 1/4" hull reveal above the overshot card. Also, your tool doesn't seem to be warm enough to efficiently interact with the plastic of the hull and roll it down. I would never try this with a hand drill simply because the results will vary with how you hold the tool, rpms, etc. Best advice, chuck the tool in a drill press-only way to get the results youre after (benchtop is fine) and spin it at the same speed you would use to bore through steel...about 260 rpm - no faster. In roll crimping, prep work is key because of heat loss in the crimper bit. BEFORE you crimp, line all your shells up that you want to spin down. Get your hull vise situated and start the press spining. Hold a turbo torch or lighter to the crimper to get it nice and warm - not hot - turn it off and carefully feel it. Youre looking for it to be just hot enough that you cant hang onto it for more than about 5 seconds. Spin a sacraficial hull (can be a regular AA) to see of the tool is interacting with the plastic and spinning them down. Once your satisfied its doing its job, spin down your first load...light even pressure. when you figure out how far it needs to spin down, set the travel on your press and youre ready to run your batch
Sandpits,sounds good to me,another source is a heat gun,used for removing paint,It works good,
but the new ones are pricey,harbor freight is the cheapest.
I wouldn't use a torch on a nylon crimper I think that would be a bad deal. I build and sell crimpers made of steel and generally I find the second or third hull comes out perfect . A little heat helps the roll start but not ripping hot. like what was stated 1/4" works well shorter will work but won't look as good. Try a faster spin , I think the nylon may be so slick that the plastic hull doesn't warm enough.
Thanks for the replies. I think the problem I am having is the rpms of my drill press. The instructions advised 200-400 rpm and in my hast to get started I only rememberd the 200 rpm speed. I think bumping that up will create the heat required. I was trimming the hull a bit too short too. You know the saying if at first it dosen't work read the instructions or ask on ShotgunWorld.
Careful. Speed kills. Im serious about the 260-300rpm range. I wouldnt close in on 400. Try to buiild up some friction, after you have your press travel and all that set, by lowering the bit til it just touches the hull mouth. Spin a few revs there and nudge down. That should be enough to transfer the heat energy to hull plastic properly. This is what I do and I have rolled litterally thousands upon thousands....Geez kindof a drag. Trying to count how many hours of my life I have spent just crimping. Oh well, this is why we reload - not time or cost savings, but to forge out a superior shell
I wouldn't use a torch on a nylon crimper I think that would be a bad deal. I build and sell crimpers made of steel and generally I find the second or third hull comes out perfect . A little heat helps the roll start but not ripping hot. like what was stated 1/4" works well shorter will work but won't look as good. Try a faster spin , I think the nylon may be so slick that the plastic hull doesn't warm enough.
I use the wife's hair blower both on the Crimper and if its not heated enough I will run it over the mouth of the hulls. Not too much heat though just enough to get them warm this will make the crimp much smoother and nicer.
I have taken my old primers and filled an empty hull to correct fill level placed a over shot card on it and roll crimped it. Before I do my hunting rds I use this primer filled shell to warm up the crimper. It will last about 6 heat times then the plastic gets nasty so I make a new one. My first rds come out as good as the last. I do agree speed kills. Just melts hulls
I tried a couple more but I am not happy yet. The speed of my drill press is in the right range so I didn't change it. It is taking me about 30 seconds to get the hull warm enough for the crimper to have effect. I will keep at it and I only need a box or so as hunting loads for my Fox so the time spent is worth it. I will ask this: are the hulls reuseable after they are fired with the roll crimp? I have attached pictures of my efforts. The first two were older hulls and the later once fired hulls.
Yes you may use the shells more than once with a roll crimp I find they last longer you can reload them more times than those that are pie crimped. The nice thing with the roll crimp is that you can trim them down even farther if the mouth begins to wear out and the hull will be shorter but will be safe to reload and the hull life will stretch even further. I perfer the roll crimp. they may take longer to produce but it is a nicer looking round and just better in my book.
Yes speed kills!! slow down the process let the hull mouth warm up with light LIGHT pressure before applying the final actual roll on the crimp. As mentioned above. Adjust your shot level to create a deeper crimp which will be more secure also.
Looks of the two on the left seems you are getting the hang of things.
After reading the instructions and warnings above, I am compelled to ask....
why on earth would anyone go through any of this to crimp a shotgun shell?
Yes, I've seen kgp912kgp's reasons a few posts up, but... seriously?
This all seems like an awful lot of PITA just for a "nicer-looking" shell.
Republican, I purchased a Precision Reloading crimper. It is made of nylon and was $16.00 shipped to my address. The overshot wads I am making myself from cardboard I have collected. I use a 12ga fiber for size and a box cutter.
DrMike, The reasons I am doing the roll crimping. First I have a 1912 Fox Sterlingworth with 2&5/8" chambers. The firing pins hang up in the fired hulls, but seem to retract properly when just opening the gun. I am hoping the roll crimped shorter shells will possibly alleviate any "push back" the forcing cone may put on the hulls and allow the firing pins to free themselves from the primer dents. The 2&5/8" chambers and and 2&3/4" shells were a standard with the FOX Gun Co. but since everything else about this gun checks out fine I am testing this theory of my own. Second, Roll crimps are supposed to give better patterns and finally, I like to try things out for myself. Anecdotal findings sometimes offer conclusions that are the result of misinterpretated example. I also have been told above, that the roll crimp may extend hull life! A benefit that will be nice!
Get 1/4" above the card and BUMP the speed up , I think that nylon roller is not going to work at 200. Those crimps look like your just sitting and spinning on them. Put your thumb on the drill press lever so you can feel the crimp start to move and roll it right down. When you get the feel for it you will wonder what was so hard.
Do not bother to put anything in a case to test the roll turn over tool, If you have got the speed right then you should be able to roll an empty case down until the crimped over end touches the base wad on the inside of the case, Also use a dab of lube on the crimp toll to smooth things out a bit .
I built my own GAEP style rto press using interchangable heads (410/16/12) and a 3000 rpm motor and a inverter to control the speed all the way from from 1rpm to 3000 ,At a to high a speed the plastic of the case rolls over perfectly but in doing so flows with heat rather than rolls and when you fire them the rolled portion cracks away from the case.
The only advantage of using very high speed is that you can roll turn over old 6/8 point crimped shells and the case mouth does not get torn up.
OK! My learning curve was eight shells, some when fired, I will have to check to be cetain there is no part of the hull left in the barrel. I increased the speed and that was no good, so I slowed it back. Next I tried a bit of a lubricant to the out side of the hull because it looked chafed. I lowered the tool till it just seemed to stop lightly on the hull, counted to 5 and pressed just slightly:
LOOKING GREAT!!
I choose to roll crimp with my vintage BGI roll crimping machine for many reasons, including the history of the roll crimp.
I also make my own overshot cards out of manilla folders 2 high make a nice fit. I purchased a hole punch from an art n craft store. broke the first one and the second one works great. some come out a lil too big I like them to be .70in diameter. Maybe a lil bigger for a snug fit.
I have a dowel with a razor nailed in it and a screw in the end for hull length adjustment (homeade for cost savings) for my trimming process.
This style crimp does help for patterning and for use in short chambered shotguns, and more. I just love it and keeps me out of the wife's way for many a night.
Great those hulls look alot better, once they are rolled down though you don't need another 5 seconds it's done. Roll crimping is more art than science
slohuntr, doubt your issue with the gun is due to the length of the shells. More likely due to the primer sticking to/flowing around the hammer tips. Had this same issue with my Foxes and primers by the big W. I now use only Rem primers and no more hard opening.
BTW, your gun will shoot 2 3/4 loads just fine but nothing wrong with using shortened
roll-your-own loads though.
slohuntr,
Crimps are looking nice. We use a little bullet lube on the crimp die to keep the crimps looking smooth.
BTW I would recommend you get some empty primer trays to put those primers in (if they're live). Although I have not personally experienced a bulk primer incident, putting them in the manufacturers shipping tray will increase the safety of your opperation.
Thanks for the kind words on my successes and for the helpful suggestions. I have been reloading for about 40 years now without any negative incidents so I'm afraid I will continue to do as I have done. Thanks for the concern though. Lucky you didn't notice my glass of bourbon!
I purchased a GAEP roll-crimper in 24 gauge last year and I promised to post some pictures. I'm finally getting around to it. I have used Lyman roll crimpers for decades, in 20, 12 and 10 gauge - the kind you chuck in a hand drill. I have and use a "single pin" 28 from BPI, which I don't recommend, and a 16 I got through Precision Reloading that works pretty well. Of course Lyman's aren't made anymore - you're lucky to find one. Reloading tools for the 24 gauge are rare, and the only real hull choice seems to be 65 mm Fiocchi's from BPI. Gualandi wads are available also, but they seem dedicated to pretty wimpy loads of less than 3/4 oz. I doctored up a MEC 600 for 24 gauge a few years back, using 20 and 28 gauge parts, and some machine work. I was able to make a reamer to expand a 28 gauge the black plastic final crimp die out to 24 gauge. Its a bit more difficult than you'd think, and I'm not sure it's worth it, as the star crimp takes up so much hull length. A roll crimp would make better use of that 65mm hull, and be easier than making the star crimps on little hulls with no crimp memory -- more on that later. It is a bear to find a good 24 gauge roll crimper, and usually they are some kind of antique. Once I became aware of GAEP in Italy, I was gratified to find they make a 24 ga. roll crimper. Working with the fellow from GAEP was really pleasant, and the roll crimper works quite well. I think his crimp tools are the best available right now. Here's a batch of 24 gauge. These are loaded with the Spred-R insert. The 20/28 gauge insert fits well in the 24. I roll crimp right down on it, and it forms the overshot wad. You know you've got a spreader load when you see that wad. Here's a photo:
Here's my loading set-up. I use a MEC Super-Sizer to firmly and precisely hold the shell. I use a 28 gauge collet and back it out a bit so it only closes to 24 gauge diameter -- works great. The ring resizer I made for my MEC 600 works OK, but the little thin Fiocchi low-base brass heads like collet resizing a bit more. I have a very simple old benchtop drill press I align directly over the Super-Sizer. Its the old kind that holds a hand drill. It's pretty easy to line up over the shell. Once you load up a batch of shells, the roll crimping goes fast. Photo:
Here's a picture of my wad column components. On the right is a 24 gauge Gualandi reversible brush wad, available from BPI. Great wad, as it has a gas seal on each end! It's too long to use for my 7/8 ounce loads (16.5 grains Longshot, Fio 616 primer), but I like the gas seal. I cut them off with a utility knife -- you can see the result left of the full-length wad column. Then I use sufficient fibre filler wads (Circle Fly makes a lot of 24 gauge stuff and muzzle loaders use them in their .58 cal guns - same size). For the spreader loads I don't use a shot cup, but if you think you need one, you can always cut one from a Gualandi 24 gauge shot cup column -- BPI sells those too. On the farthest left, of course is the Spred-R insert:
Once again, I strongly recommend GAEP's products. I would think the 12 and 16 gauge roll crimpers would be the best you can get. Here are some more pics of the 24's -- the ones with the yellow top wad are Fiocchi factory loads for comparison:
Cheers!
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