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 Post subject: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 3:43 pm 
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1) I recently bought one of Savage's little Model 42 combination guns in .22LR and .410. The .22's performance isn't relevant here, save to say that I'm happy with it and I like the way the gun handles in every respect. The .410 is quite another matter - range rules forbade the use of shotshells, but I did have some Winchester slugs with me (quarter ounce at 1800fps according to the package) and I let a few of those off. The loudness of the muzzle blast and the kick surprised me at the time, though it's probably to be expected given how light a gun this is and how short the barrel. So my first question is whether it's possible to ameliorate this by use of the right handload. The primary use would be elimination of small vermin (squirrel, rabbit etc.).

2) The second question relates to the manner of doing so. Has anyone here used a thing called a Lane's Loader? http://lanesreloading.com/410.html I don't anticipate any particularly high volume of shotshells going through this gun, so I'm not sure I can justify a MEC reloader, and Lee Loaders in this calibre are rare as rocking horse dung and hideously expensive on ebay. This is much cheaper, and while I might be getting exactly what I pay for, it looks like a fun thing to at least give a try and wear the loss if it turns out to be a dud. (I also have a 12 gauge, but I'll almost certainly be getting a proper single stage press for reloading that.)




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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 4:20 pm 
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I would just start by reloading the 12 gauge, and see if the hobby appeals to you. It doesn't sound like you would be shooting the 410 enough to invest in reloading just yet, although it wouldn't take many boxes of shells at over $10 a box to get your attention. I use a MEC 600 Jr to load 410s and it has paid for itself many times over already. Mark

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 4:37 pm 
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.410 slug reloading is pretty obscure. So before you consider buying anything, I'd research both a source of components AND appropriate load data.

I have ZERO idea how helpful it is, but BPI sells a slug reloading guide that includes the subgauges. They also sell a roundball slug for .410.

Again, have both a recipe and a supply source first. With oddball stuff like this, it's very common to order something (from BPI in particular!) and then have no loading data.

My suggestion is to stick with .410 shotshells. I know you can't put in range time with them, but compared to the .22 your accuracy and performance with slugs will be less than desirable for small game.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:38 pm 
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Thank you for your input so far. Based on your replies, I realise that I must apologise and clarify matters somewhat.

I fired the slugs because shotshells were not permitted on the range.

If I were to reload the .410, I would be reloading with shot, not slugs. I do, however, anticipate similar muzzle blast issues, which I'd like to ameliorate if I can. I have previous experience in metallic cartridge reloading and am enthusiastically getting back into that again, though I appreciate that shotshell reloading is a very different kettle of fish.

Sorry for any confusion I have caused. Your point about .410 slug performance is, however, well taken; accuracy was awful, and if I really needed something with the sort of bullet weight and muzzle velocity figures the .410 slug provides, I would probably buy a lever gun in .357 Magnum.

I may soon have access to another range, and I'm hoping that will offer the ability to play with the .410 a little with shot instead of solids.

Thanks again for all your advice so far. :)


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Let me suggest that you try some 1200 fps .410 target loads first. The 1800 fps slug loads you were using are pretty hot. My guess is that the 1200 fps shot loads won't be nearly as ferocious! They will certainly do the job on "small vermin;" as will a .22 long rifle.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Before you get too far into this, check to see just how the 410 barrel patterns at 20 to 25 yards. Those guns have traditionally been poor performers in 410 bore. The guns with 12 and 20 gauge shotgun barrels have usually been better performers.

I think you have mistaken the model as a #42, which is actually a #24, with numerous sub models as 24-D, 24-DL, 24-MDL, 24-F, 24-FG, 24-C, 24-V, and 24-VS. The original models were made starting in 1950, and some are still made today, while some of them have been discontinued along the way. They had numerous O/U combinations which included 12, 20, and 410 under barrels, and over barrels from 22 rim fire to 22 mag, 22 Hornet, 222 Rem., 223 Rem., 30-30 Win., 357 mag., and 357 Maximum.

I have owned a couple of these guns and all the rifle barrels were fine. The 20 ga. was a good performer but the 410 was useless. Therefore, I suggest you get some 410 shells and check it out before you get too far into it. You will either find it suitable for your purposes, or find it not suitable. Best to determine this before spending any money on reloading equipment.

Good luck to you.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:20 pm 
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Hmmm! Useless? I killed quite a few pheasants with my old .410/22. It was the old style with the button barrel selector. Kinda wish I still had it.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:30 pm 
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Burnt Powder wrote:
Hmmm! Useless? I killed quite a few pheasants with my old .410/22. It was the old style with the button barrel selector. Kinda wish I still had it.

BP


Yes, You got a good one. However I've seen several that you could pattern a hand full of rocks better. The one I had was no exception. The 22LR barrel was a top performer though.

The other one I had, (and wish I still had it), was a 222Rem. over a 20 ga. That was a very good rifle and shotgun. Friend of mine has it and carries it with him 100% of the time on his ranch. Couldn't pry it away from him now.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:37 pm 
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Yup, I always wanted a Duce and 20 myself. Don't see many for sale do you!

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:50 am 
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DL Marcum - no, this is definitely a Model 42. http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/Model42 I'm quite familiar theoretically with the older model, though.

I'm certainly not racing out to buy a MEC press & was hoping to gather any opinions, info, hints or tips I could about the Lane product before I committed myself. As I stated, it would be strictly for fun.

OldSkeeter, your observation about the relative ferocity of shot & slug loads is noted; as soon as I find time in my schedule AND somewhere I can legitimately fire shotshells (that co-incidence is important!!), I can assure you I will be racing there as fast as I can!


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:23 am 
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pathdoc wrote:
DL Marcum - no, this is definitely a Model 42. http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/Model42 I'm quite familiar theoretically with the older model, though.


I stand corrected. I did look in my Blue Book, (which is several years old), and found no trace of the Model 42, and just suspected you had reversed the numbers. That gun must be a pretty new model, that came along after my version of the Blue Book was printed.

That 410 barrel stands a better chance of patterning well. Much has been learned about 410 barrels and how to properly choke them in these later years. It's definitely been proved that 410's throw far better patterns with more choke than was previously thought.

You may have a real fine shooter there. Good luck with it.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 3:46 pm 
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It's definitely been proved that 410's throw far better patterns with more choke than was previously thought.


Ha! I wish. The instruction manual tells me the barrel is cylinder-bored. I suspect they've done this because they have no control over what might be put through it and don't want to risk an over-tight fixed choke with too hard a slug.

I've seen a YouTube video on the Lee .410 loader in which (IIRC) the included data card gives data for a THREE QUARTER OUNCE shot load (over fibre gas check and spacers). I can only imagine how hard that would kick in this thing.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:33 pm 
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pathdoc wrote:
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It's definitely been proved that 410's throw far better patterns with more choke than was previously thought.


Ha! I wish. The instruction manual tells me the barrel is cylinder-bored. I suspect they've done this because they have no control over what might be put through it and don't want to risk an over-tight fixed choke with too hard a slug.

I've seen a YouTube video on the Lee .410 loader in which (IIRC) the included data card gives data for a THREE QUARTER OUNCE shot load (over fibre gas check and spacers). I can only imagine how hard that would kick in this thing.


You may have a situation like the Winchester 9410's when they came out. Didn't shoot worth a Damn. But, you could send them to Mike Orlen, (Barrelsmith in Ma.) and have him install screw chokes in them, and they were them first class shooters.

Mike was a sponsor on this website, and maybe still is. Or you can contact him at 413-256-1630. I have seen much of his work, and it is excellent. Have sent many friends to him for barrel work and all has been very satisfactory and very reasonably priced.

If the gun is fine in all other respects, then having it screw choked is well worth the added expense, and will make it shoot very satisfactorily.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:15 pm 
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I've got one of the Savage O/U 22/410s myself, a model 24, that's probably older than me. It's my favorite "kick around the woods" gun.

I must have got a "good" 410 barrel on mine because it patterns super-extra-full, probably better than 90% patterns at 25 yards (have shot some patterns but haven't counted the holes and done the math yet). It will literally blow a squirrel in half with #6 shot inside of about 30 yards.

I've always wanted one of these old guns with a 30/30 barrel over whatever. Not sure why, just something to play with I guess.

Papershotshells

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:55 am 
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But, you could send them to Mike Orlen, (Barrelsmith in Ma.) and have him install screw chokes in them, and they were them first class shooters.

Mike was a sponsor on this website, and maybe still is. Or you can contact him at 413-256-1630. I have seen much of his work, and it is excellent. Have sent many friends to him for barrel work and all has been very satisfactory and very reasonably priced.


DLM, I'm still trying to resolve an issue with him over an extended tube installation. The work performed was as advertised, but customer service has been a problem in getting the ordered tube. At this time I cannot recommend him. Caveat emptor.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Lionhead wrote:
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But, you could send them to Mike Orlen, (Barrelsmith in Ma.) and have him install screw chokes in them, and they were them first class shooters.

Mike was a sponsor on this website, and maybe still is. Or you can contact him at 413-256-1630. I have seen much of his work, and it is excellent. Have sent many friends to him for barrel work and all has been very satisfactory and very reasonably priced.


DLM, I'm still trying to resolve an issue with him over an extended tube installation. The work performed was as advertised, but customer service has been a problem in getting the ordered tube. At this time I cannot recommend him. Caveat emptor.


Sorry for your trouble, but I doubt Mike is the direct cause. I have known Mike for a number of years, had numerous friends send work to him, and have never heard of a problem with his work or with dealing with him.

Like every other service business in the USA, sometimes things happen that are out of their control, but eventually they do get fixed and all is well.

Giving Mike a bad rap over something that he probably has no control over, is in and of it'self not fair to the man.

Personally, I would recommend the mans service to anyone, and use it myself without hesitation.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Sorry for your trouble, but I doubt Mike is the direct cause. I have known Mike for a number of years, had numerous friends send work to him, and have never heard of a problem with his work or with dealing with him.


DLM, there are many recommendations from the past that influenced me to send him my job. That said, my experience was not in the machining part of the job, but obtaining the part. I don't want to go into the details, but the facts are simple and nothing complicated or personal.

Without knowing the facts, you may want to hold off. I believe I've been fair in setting this out. If it gets resolved, I'll let you know.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:26 am 
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papershotshells wrote:
I've got one of the Savage O/U 22/410s myself, a model 24, that's probably older than me. It's my favorite "kick around the woods" gun.

I must have got a "good" 410 barrel on mine because it patterns super-extra-full, probably better than 90% patterns at 25 yards (have shot some patterns but haven't counted the holes and done the math yet). It will literally blow a squirrel in half with #6 shot inside of about 30 yards.

I've always wanted one of these old guns with a 30/30 barrel over whatever. Not sure why, just something to play with I guess.

Papershotshells


I have one in 20ga and 30/30. I bought it for my brother 40 years ago. Then he gave it back to me saying he don't hunt any more. It was a mess. I had it reblued and the wood refinish. It looks like new again.
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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Living as I do in Canada, I think sending my work to a US gunsmith is likely to be more trouble than it's worth - I'm sure you understand. But I do like the idea of getting the barrel tapped for chokes. Shall ask around locally and see if there's anyone around who'll do that. Would I be correct in assuming that with such a short barrel, an extended choke may be an advantage?


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading: two questions.
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 4:58 pm 
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pathdoc wrote:
Living as I do in Canada, I think sending my work to a US gunsmith is likely to be more trouble than it's worth - I'm sure you understand. But I do like the idea of getting the barrel tapped for chokes. Shall ask around locally and see if there's anyone around who'll do that. Would I be correct in assuming that with such a short barrel, an extended choke may be an advantage?


Barrel length has nothing to do with it, but extended chokes have almost always improved patterns. Even Briley choke tubes in their tube sets in 28 and 410 are very short, about 1-1/2 inches. Going to extended chokes in those subgauge tubes has always improved patterns.

So yes, by all means do get extended choke tubes if you have screw-ins installed.

DLM



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