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 Post subject: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:20 am 
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So I recently added 20GA into my reloading routine and I'm trying to get a clear picture of hull attributes.

My question is this, looking only at Remington, and Winchester hulls, are there generational differences across the same brands I need to be concerned with(have hull designs changed over the years). Or are their differences across styles within the same manufacturer? (incompatible hulls of the same gauge from the same manufacturer with different style names)

So for example, are all Winchester AA 20GA hulls the same regardless of age? How about STS 20GA?

Are 20GA STS hulls interchangeable with 20GA gun clubs (as the 12GA hulls are)?

Stuff like that.

All input appreciated!




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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:40 am 
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None of them are the same over the years but not enough difference to make any or much difference, most of the time.

No, not all AAs are the same over the years. Two general classifications but indeed different none the less. On paper they are identical in data and performance, in reality that's not always so.

STSs are all the same and close enough to be interchangeable with Gun Clubs. But different from the Premier and RXPs and even farther back than that. RXP through the STSs are close enough to being the same that with few exceptions can be considered identical. Press adjustments being the biggest issue between the different Remington hulls. Same thing with the two styles of AA hulls, though the component selection is slightly more critical with the AAs vs the several Remington hulls.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:16 pm 
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I have a slug of WW-HS 20ga hulls. These suck (my experience) when loading 7/8oz loads 'cause they have poor interior capacity. WW wads are too long. Use CB for better results.

However, the WW-HS work great with the CB 3/4oz wad. I'm very happy with these. I don't load anything but 3/4oz or 5/8oz 20ga and these work great for that purpose.

Rem STS are absolutely roomy in terms of capacity vs WW-HS. Load all the 7/8oz you want. I'm not interested but others load these with 1oz.

I find my machine works best if I don't mix hulls but load 1 kind at a time.

YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:43 pm 
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Location: Duluth, MN
Can 20 ga WW-HS data be used with 20 ga win Universal hulls?


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:10 pm 
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jsorvik wrote:
Can 20 ga WW-HS data be used with 20 ga win Universal hulls?
Yes, it can.

And other than weaker tube walls, they have a little more volume and load easier than the AAHS.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:17 pm 
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Thanks! That helps. I picked some up and liked how they loaded, but decided I better not fire them till I was sure it was safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:38 pm 
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I find AA hulls to be more trouble than they are worth. I still keep them when I empty a bucket of hulls at the range, but they are the last I load. When I do, I use RXP20 wads. I find the Rem wads to be easier to load, and since they are tapered hulls they are pretty efficient in terms of powder usage to throw shot at a given velocity.

Try Federal 20 gauge wads as well. Easiest to load that I have found, and if you want to do higher speed/capacity hunting loads they have enough space to accommodate spicier loads.[


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:20 am 
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brewer12345 wrote:
I find AA hulls to be more trouble than they are worth. I still keep them when I empty a bucket of hulls at the range, but they are the last I load.
I agree. Since I have to adjust the press to make these load right I only use them when I must.

brewer12345 wrote:
Try Federal 20 gauge wads as well. Easiest to load that I have found, and if you want to do higher speed/capacity hunting loads they have enough space to accommodate spicier loads.
Did you mean to say Federal hulls or wads? I really like the Federal Top Gun/Estate 20 gauge hulls. They are everything you said, roomy, easy to load, and best of all, left on the ground or buckets in huge numbers.

I bought a case of the SG20M last time they were on sale and they are a very good match for the Federal hulls.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:13 am 
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I use both AAs and Remingtons and have no problems reloading them. I just batch 'em by brand and recipe - they load fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:07 am 
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You guys make me chuckle when you say you won't load one hull or the other because then you have to adjust your press? Sounds like you either have the wrong press, or..... It just can't be that big of deal, surely? I do it all the time switching from one hull to another. Maybe I spend a minute, maybe two dialing in. Well, maybe I'm just good at it since I do it so much.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:26 am 
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Burnt Powder wrote:
You guys make me chuckle when you say you won't load one hull or the other because then you have to adjust your press? Sounds like you either have the wrong press, or..... It just can't be that big of deal, surely? I do it all the time switching from one hull to another. Maybe I spend a minute, maybe two dialing in. Well, maybe I'm just good at it since I do it so much.

BP
So maybe I can take some credit for giving you a chuckle, but believe me when I say I have no problem with making adjustments to my presses, I do it constantly because I am always loading different things.

I guess the better way to have put it is in which adjustments I have to make. I find that when the press is set properly I can load almost anything with nothing more than a tweak here and there.

Loading the AAHS requires that I re-adjust everything, which I can do easily enough, but it's more than I want to do every time for a hull that really offers no benefit when I have bucketfuls of Remington hulls that I can run right along with most of the euro hulls and Federals.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:38 am 
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brewer12345 wrote:
I find AA hulls to be more trouble than they are worth.


The only 20 ga. hulls I reload are AAHS hulls with CB Orange Duster wads. I use a PW 800+, and it took very little adjustment to get the AAHS hulls to run smoothly. Frankly, some of the best reloads I get are with the 20 ga. AAHS hulls.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:27 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
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Location: Eastern Nebraska
I find the AAHS vs Rem situation in 20 gauge to be remarkably similar to that in 12 gauge. The AAHS has a bit less internal volume. Loading will go much better if you use a wad that is a bit shorter or powder that is relatively dense such as 20/28 or Win Super Field. In 12 and 20 you need to drop the crimp starter, crimp closer (and taper die if there is one) all down a tad when going to AAHS. Exactly like in 12 gauge there are a fair number of published recipes that are really too big to fit. The manuals claim the recipes can be used in AAHS and AACF but it becomes obvious that they are really better in CF. There are a few differences:
It is generally pretty easy to find all the 12 gauge Gun Clubs you want. They are much less common in 20. Try to pack too much in an AAHS and you can buckle the case walls. It is much harder to buckle them on a 20 (but can be done.) In 12 all (or a very high percentages) of the Remingtons load the same. GC, Nitro, STS, green, or black, or gold: all the same. For 20 gauge Republican has posted some rather detailed photos showing significant difference in length for popular Remington hulls.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:57 am 
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Cerberus wrote:
Did you mean to say Federal hulls or wads? I really like the Federal Top Gun/Estate 20 gauge hulls. They are everything you said, roomy, easy to load, and best of all, left on the ground or buckets in huge numbers.

I bought a case of the SG20M last time they were on sale and they are a very good match for the Federal hulls.


Yes, I meant to say Federal hulls. That said, the factory wads do really well in the hulls. I bought some of the SG20M wads, too. Have only loaded a box of shells in Federal hulls with them to try them out, but they made very nice shells for trap. Despite the fact that BPI publishes loads for Federal hulls with SG20M wads and an ounce of shot, I find the load does not fit or crimp well. With a Federal 20S1 wad it is pretty easy to make a dandy 1 ounce load and with a powder like Longshot it can be a pretty good hunting load.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:24 pm 
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Location: Phoenixville PA
Burnt Powder is right about "adjusting presses" for hulls. I don't for Winchester or Remington hulls, I just adjust the recipes if required. For other hulls, I may tweak the press slightly as required. It ain't a big deal!

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:35 pm 
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Some folks seem afraid to adjust anything, they remark that the likes of RCBS, Spolar, and to some extent MEC if you send your machine for repair, will set them up for one particular load or hull before they send it back. Then they are worried sick about trying something different for fear they will screw the adjustments up.

I load all my shells except .410 on Pacific/Bair/Hornady machines. The only things I ever have to adjust is primer seating stem, pre crimp and the final crimp seating/sizing die. Piece of cake. I can understand just by using a MEC 600Jr. how one may hesitantly adjust something. Adjusting that thing is like teaching a 15 year old daughter how to drive a stick shift! I'm pretty good at it now since I've been loading all kinds of .410 hulls with it for years. Sometimes not more than a dozen or so at a time. I know what does what and about how much to move what to get where I need to be.

The "ehe, ehe, ehe, don't touch it", is what amuses me.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:29 pm 
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Are there any meaningful differences between these.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:14 pm 
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The one on the right is either a compression formed hull or a very early high strength hull. I can't be sure without seeing it. Obviously it's the longer of the three. The very early seperate base wad HSs looked like that, very similar to the earlier CFAAs. Other than that, no.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:40 pm 
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The 2 on the left are the new style AAHS and should be identical from an internal volume standpoint. Cut the one on the right open and see if there is a separate piece in the bottom, if there is, it is the same as the 2 on the left. If there is no separate piece in the bottom, it is an older style AACF hull with a bit more internal volume. Because the finish on the hull on the right appears shiny and slick, like the 2 on the left, I suspect it is a newer style AAHS.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me understand 20GA hulls - Winchester and Remington
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:10 pm 
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You don't have to cut the hull to find out whether or not it's an HS hull, just slide something in it, (like a small screwdriver), and see if you can feel the lip of a base wad. If so, it's an HS.

BP



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