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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:40 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 144
Location: Northern Michigan
I have noticed variations in lot numbers of A24 myself. Always the best practice to check different lot numbers in any powder with a good scale.




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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:03 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:23 am
Posts: 823
Location: Issaquah, WA
One thing about A24 that amazes me is that it meters as consistently as it does given those large square flakes. Since I use a UCB, I don't really notice density changes because I rarely change powder lots in the middle of a run and I just adjust it when changing to a different load. I don't write down the setting so I really have no point of reference to notice a change.


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:09 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 10269
Location: Covington, WA USA
Nicoli7153 wrote:
I have noticed variations in lot numbers of A24 myself.

What kind of "variations" ? Color, size, density, performance ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:08 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 813
Dave in AZ wrote:
Just a report on MEC Bushings with Vectan A24. My throws were about 0.8gr less than what other folks have reported in this and the 3/4oz thread.

I just threw 10 loads on MEC9000, using bushing #32. It's a pretty smooth one, not much clunking. Using the metal baffle. All 10 were exactly 15.3 gr, except one 15.5 and one 15.4.

I used bushing #33 and got 16.2 over 10 loads, varying from 16.0 to 16.5.
I then loaded 250 shells, taking maybe 15 samples as I went. All samples were 16.0 to 16.2 gr.
I used Hornady digital scale, calibrated with the included weight, and verified with a 2nd Hornady scale of the same model. I cross-weighed at least 10 throws on both scales and got same weight on both each time, so I think it's good accuracy.

I'm targeting the loads Republican chrono'd. Ended up with 16.2 gr powder. But I used Fed209A and Ch209, so will see what they chrono.


I should be more complete...
Vectan A24 powder batch # PB15570

Chrono tested today.
UNTESTED LOADS, DO NOT LOAD, SHOOT AT OWN RISK!
8/12/2017
Gun Cynergy 3.5", factory IC
Chrono Chrony F1 w/ sunscreens
Notes:
1032msl 82F sunny
3/4 oz
Rem ACF fired 1x
CB0175-12
16.2 gr Vectan A24 #PB15570
Ch209 (cx2000)
fps
1 1260
2 1241
3 1255
4 1237
5 1263
6
7
8
9
10
avg 1251. CALCULATED TRUE MV 1359 per KPY.
std dev 12
extr. Var 26

8/12/2017
Gun Cynergy 3.5", factory IC
Chrono Chrony F1 w/ sunscreens
Notes:
1032msl 82F sunny
3/4 oz
Rem ACF fired 1x
CB0175-12
16.2 gr Vectan A24 #PB15570
Fed209A
fps
1 1283
2 1259
3 1282
4 1279
5 1304
6 1270
7
8
9
10
avg 1280. CALCULATED TRUE MV 1320 per KPY
std dev 15
extr. Var 45

4ft from muzzle to middle of sensors per instructions. True MV are 70-80 fps faster per KPY, but I am reporting MEASURED MV above..

I'm pretty sure everyone on here generally reports their measured chrono MV and stats, and doesn't actually ever post the true MV calculated by KPY from distance muzzle to screens, but it's pretty significant true increase. Not sure how to treat that or report it, or if I want to decrease these loads based on the TRUE vs. measured MV... comments on that?

In any case, the results above shot that I got good tight results with low SD, with the Fed209 primer giving about 29 fps more. My current inclination is to use the CH209 primer, and maybe even drop back down to bushing #32 with 0.8 or 0.9 gr less powder for a 1215 or so fps. I didn't shoot patterns today, but did shoot 4 rounds of skeet and felt the patterns were very solid.


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:28 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 10269
Location: Covington, WA USA
You got 29 fps difference in 3/4 ounce loads with 2 different (short) string lengths (5 vs. 6).

That's nothing to be concerned with (in general), but in my view, it's also not enough data to make the claim.

You should shoot at least two or three side-by-side 10-shot strings, and maybe on different days (and different temps) with the different lot #'s to verify a difference. You should also test at a heavier (7/8th's oz) payload.


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:52 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 144
Location: Northern Michigan
Republican wrote:
Nicoli7153 wrote:
I have noticed variations in lot numbers of A24 myself.

What kind of "variations" ? Color, size, density, performance ?


Density. Been awhile since my last order but I recall having to go up or down one size bushing.


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:17 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Eastern Nebraska
As noted earlier, I am very pleased with AS and find it actually covers a bigger range than what is published. However, I am concerned with Prima V. I had hoped it would make a good handicap load in AAHS with 1 1/8 at around 1220-1230 FPS. They do publish loads in this range with charge weights up to 19.4 grains. It is dense enough that it fits well in this hull. I elected to have an 19.0 grain load tested. They are very consistent with an SD on velocity of 07 for a 10 shot string. Average velocity was 1244 which is a bit more than I really need. However, pressures were WELL ABOVE SAAMI with an average of 12752 PSI. In ten loads the lowest pressure was 10,600 and a three were up around 13,400. People can certainly form their own opinion, but 12,752 average is what Precision measured. These were hand weighed loads (powder and shot) and crimps were 0.050-055.

So, I got data from Precision that says pressure is high. I discussed this with Mike Graff. He says BPI produced all the published data. I will not be loading up in this range without more data. At this point I am wondering: exactly how did BPI produce this data? I also discussed this with Kevin Lewis of Downrange. He said he has not worked with any Vectan powder.


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:00 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:23 am
Posts: 823
Location: Issaquah, WA
Hmmm - very interesting information on the Prima-V. My take from the published data is that Prima-V is really more oriented toward 1 oz loads. There are relatively few 1 1/8 oz loads and the general description of the powders at the beginning of the document describes its targeted use as "12ga 1 oz High Velocity Target Loads". Maybe GM3 or D20 would be better choices. Their published loads are somewhat lower pressure (maybe lower than you would prefer) and they are slightly less efficient but if the pressures are somewhat understated like Prima-V appears to have been....


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:43 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Eastern Nebraska
Pickman wrote:
Hmmm - very interesting information on the Prima-V. My take from the published data is that Prima-V is really more oriented toward 1 oz loads. There are relatively few 1 1/8 oz loads and the general description of the powders at the beginning of the document describes its targeted use as "12ga 1 oz High Velocity Target Loads". Maybe GM3 or D20 would be better choices. Their published loads are somewhat lower pressure (maybe lower than you would prefer) and they are slightly less efficient but if the pressures are somewhat understated like Prima-V appears to have been....

Pretty much my thoughts. The loads listed (19.1 gr and 19.4 gr) are both listed at under 11,000. I thought I was being fairly conservative at 19.0. But, as you noted, it just did not sound right. That's why I decided to get some tested.

FWIW: I attempted to bracket the upper limit for this powder and actually sent in loads of 19.0 and 19.7. I THOUGHT these two points would give me a good indication of the upper limit. If you had a 3 1/2 inch chamber rated at 13500, about 19.5 would be a good load with a very low SD. What I discovered is the upper limit is not between 19.0 and 19.7 if you have a standard 11500 PSI gun. I am thinking that Prima V is indeed a 1 ounce powder or a reduced velocity 1 1/8 powder. But, this is exactly where AS seems to really shine. I do have some GM3 and 700X, looks like they will be my handicap powder.


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:24 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 813
Republican wrote:
You got 29 fps difference in 3/4 ounce loads with 2 different (short) string lengths (5 vs. 6).

That's nothing to be concerned with (in general), but in my view, it's also not enough data to make the claim.

You should shoot at least two or three side-by-side 10-shot strings, and maybe on different days (and different temps) with the different lot #'s to verify a difference. You should also test at a heavier (7/8th's oz) payload.

Yep. But despite just a few shots, it was consistant enough that Im relatively sure.both primers are in my desired range of 1230 to 1300 fps.
Since I was using the same basic load that you posted data for, with just different primers and couple grains diff throw from bushing, I only chronographed enough to confirm prior reports in my mind.

I did like the shells very much, and plan on loading them as my std skeet load.


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:41 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 10269
Location: Covington, WA USA
albatros wrote:
So, I got data from Precision that says pressure is high. I discussed this with Mike Graff. He says BPI produced all the published data. I will not be loading up in this range without more data. At this point I am wondering: exactly how did BPI produce this data?

So what exactly did he say that they are going to DO about this problem ??

albatros wrote:
I also discussed this with Kevin Lewis of Downrange. He said he has not worked with any Vectan powder.

Why the heck would you do that ? What would Kevin Lewis have to do with BPI publishing over-pressure data ??


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:51 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Eastern Nebraska
I got data from BPI that says pressure is fine. i got data for Precision that says it is pretty darned high. I am at a loss as to who to believe. Sooo, I talked to anyone and everyone that I thought MIGHT be able to offer ANY input or insight on the subject.

Mike Graff said he had nothing to do with the data and I should talk to BPI.

I was looking for anyone else at the Grand that might know something about ballistics and testing. Kevin Lewis has tested a variety of powders in the past. Several years ago Mike Graff told me he had a batch of import powder at Downrange being tested. I ran into Kevin and simply asked if he had ANY experience with Vectan. He said No. We have had members of the forum question the validity of data from Precison. I asked Kevin about this. He says he deals with Keith regularly, they use similar equipment, and he believes Keith's number are accurate.

I also talked to Ron Rieber at Hodgdon but that conversation was not in reference to Vectan powders.

I would have talked to Allliant also IF they had been in their storefront. Couple years ago Ben Amonette was quite helpful on a question re 700X! (yeah I know that is a Hodgdon powder.)


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:26 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 10269
Location: Covington, WA USA
Alb's, - you should call BPI, and ask for Grant. Grant is really a nice guy, and a great, and easy guy to talk to. I worked with him a while back about getting those Gualandi GU-1225's, and GU-1227's imported from Italy.

Anyways, explain the situation to him, and offer to send him the data you got from Precision.

If you want, I can work up the same load (preferably from different lot numbers) and also get it tested at Precision to double-team it and get to the bottom of it. If it's over pressure data, then they need to pull it, but at minimal, they (BPI) needs to be made aware of it.

BPI can get defensive, but see if you can work directly with Grant (or as many people as you can for that matter).

albatros wrote:
I got data from BPI that says pressure is fine. i got data for Precision that says it is pretty darned high.

Don't let Mark know that you sent in loads made with published data, - he'll blow a gasket.

Image

(even though you were right, and he was wrong in this case).


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:57 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 367
Nicoli7153 wrote:

The bulkier A24 fits best with the shorter Purple Duster wad. Since Graf's doesn't carry the Purple Duster I have to order from another source (Recobs) and pay extra shipping.

Because of that I have done some initial work with A24 using the DRXXL pink wads for 7/8ths and 3/4 oz loads and they look promising, good stack heights crimps etc.. Their length is in between a Purple Duster and a CB-078-12. I'm hoping for one wad for both 7/8ths and 3/4.



Bulkier for sure. Since I load 17.2 of AS in my 1 oz loads, I thought I'd just start at 17.2 of A24 for 7/8's based on your load above. Figured just a little tweak to the UCB to get the drops correct. No way. Had to go about one complete revolution. Checked the drops on two scales, so I know it's accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:28 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 10269
Location: Covington, WA USA
gbrendemueh wrote:
Bulkier for sure. Since I load 17.2 of AS in my 1 oz loads, I thought I'd just start at 17.2 of A24 for 7/8's based on your load above. Figured just a little tweak to the UCB to get the drops correct. No way. Had to go about one complete revolution. Checked the drops on two scales, so I know it's accurate.

BTW, Graf and Sons has that free HAZMAT promotion thing going on again.

Also, they are sold out of Prima-V, but Prima-SV is available, and a $1 cheaper/bottle than A24 :

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Vectan powder sale at Grafs: $14.99/bottle
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:53 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 813
I finished my first bottle of Vectan A24, and loved it! Now I'm glad I bought 10!
Used it for 3/4oz 12ga loads (Rem GC, CB0175-12). Meters fantastic, had absolutely ZERO powder leak from the bar, shoots extremely clean (I'm at 16.1 gr or so and around 1250-1275 fps).

I was using Promo for 7/8oz loads, and I usually found a few flakes of powder here and there that must have gotten out of the bar.

Anyways, I am a strong believer or convert if you will-- just a fantastic 12ga 3/4oz powder for metering, fit, and cleanliness.




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