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 Post subject: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:34 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:35 am
Posts: 483
I bought a bag or two of the VP05 wads last year and just trying them out on some of these Rio hulls and I keep getting a mushroomed crimp that won't cycle in a Semi, so I shoot them in my side x side and O/U. Not sure if it's a stack height problem or an adjustment. I was buckling the hulls and fixed that with a cam adjustment, but curious about this.

My load is as follows
Blue Rio
Rio 209 primer
20 grains of Clays
1 ounce of shot
VP05 wad
Single stage reloaded

I can run them through the last stage on my progressive, but I hate that extra step. I guess I could also drop back to a 7/8 ounce load too. I was going to post a picture, but the app won't let me.
Thanks




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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:34 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
Posts: 5144
What press, and before you pre-crimp the hull with the wad not compressed on insertion, but only pushed down just enough for the cup to kiss the top of powder, is the top of the shot line in the wad to the bottom inner crimp fold line in the shell?


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:42 am 
Shotgun Expert
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Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:20 pm
Posts: 10116
Location: Alvin, Texas
Trying to cure a stack height problem with raising the cam will indeed create the mushrooming of your crimps. If the stack height was right, you wouldn't be buckling hulls in the first place. Raising the cam too high will cause the mushrooming. Guaranteed!!

Change the wad as necessary to get a proper stack height. Or, reducing the shot load will also most likely cure the problem. Reducing the shot to 7/8 oz. and then lowering the cam in small increments till it takes out the mushrooming, is the quickest and easiest cure for the problem you are having.

If you wan't a 1oz, load you will first have to use a different wad, to correct the stack height. Then set the cam to correct any mushrooming.

DLM

_________________
DLM


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:20 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
Posts: 1203
Location: northern Oklahoma
I'm sure this is a BPI recipe. They list this load along with the same gr. of Clays with a 1232 (shorter) wad also. I load 19.5 gr Red Dot or Promo to get his same 1250 speed. It is a tight fit fo shizzle. As I said in another thread, I have learnt for me anyway, to set my crimp depth where I want it, about .06 +/-, and raise the crimp die body. Trying to get everything in one step collapses hulls too many times. The top rim of the hull looks a bit splayed out and would rub going in the chamber even on a break open gun. I set the taper down enough to turn the rim in, locking the crimp and I don't have ANY mushrooming on RIOs or any SW hull. The OP has a single stage press and lacks this additional feature.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:37 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 9960
Location: Covington, WA USA
Ksprayberry wrote:
I bought a bag or two of the VP05 wads last year and just trying them out on some of these Rio hulls and I keep getting a mushroomed crimp that won't cycle in a Semi, so I shoot them in my side x side and O/U. Not sure if it's a stack height problem or an adjustment. I was buckling the hulls and fixed that with a cam adjustment, but curious about this.

My load is as follows
Blue Rio
Rio 209 primer
20 grains of Clays
1 ounce of shot
VP05 wad
Single stage reloaded

I can run them through the last stage on my progressive, but I hate that extra step. I guess I could also drop back to a 7/8 ounce load too. I was going to post a picture, but the app won't let me.
Thanks

Wrong wad...

the VP05 is a 7/8's ounce wad. You need to be using the neon green Claybuster CB-6100, or the Claybuster CB-2100 (Federal 12S0 clone).

Also, take a look in the 'Euro hull reloading' sub forum, - there's lot of info about loading the Rio blues there.

viewforum.php?f=248


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:45 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
Posts: 1203
Location: northern Oklahoma
Republican wrote:


Wrong wad...

the VP05 is a 7/8's ounce wad. You need to be using the neon green Claybuster CB-6100, or the Claybuster CB-2100 (Federal 12S0 clone).

Also, take a look in the 'Euro hull reloading' sub forum, - there's lot of info about loading the Rio blues there.

viewforum.php?f=248

But, but, but, the recipe calls for this wad. We are not supposed to vary from a published recipe, are we? I keed of course. This is a published recipe for the 1205, but they also have listed the same powder charge with a 7/8 shot wt, everything else the same. Hinky huh.

I use them, makes for a very flat crimp, compresses the wad just a bit, but I'm having no issues with this recipe at all. {hs# {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:24 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:35 am
Posts: 483
Thanks for the responses. It's a sizemaster press. I have a 7/8 ounce charge bar, I'll give that a try and see how that does me.

thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:57 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 9960
Location: Covington, WA USA
Ksprayberry wrote:
Thanks for the responses. It's a sizemaster press. I have a 7/8 ounce charge bar, I'll give that a try and see how that does me.

thanks!

PM me a mailing address, and I'll ship you some Claybuster CB-6100's to try. They are perfect for that load, and also work wonderfully with 7/8th's ounce.

Before I discovered Vectan's 'AS' for my Rio blue loads, I was loading that exact same load in 1-ounce: 20.0 grains (original) Clays, CB-6100, 1-ounce #8 & #7.5, Rio G-600. I have loaded many a thousands of those loads.

But then (old, original) Clays disappeared, and Vectan's 'AS' appeared, and I started using that (without even changing the powder bushing), and never looked back. Great wad, great primer, great load, great EVERYthing.

The only thing that I do when reloading the Rio blues (that I don't do with the clear Fiocchi's), is that I do a 100% hull inspection to look for raised base wads. I got to where I can "palm" 6-7 of them by the headstamps in my left hand and visually peer inside to make sure I see the tip of the primer flush with the base wad.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:09 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:35 am
Posts: 483
Republican wrote:
Ksprayberry wrote:
Thanks for the responses. It's a sizemaster press. I have a 7/8 ounce charge bar, I'll give that a try and see how that does me.

thanks!

PM me a mailing address, and I'll ship you some Claybuster CB-6100's to try. They are perfect for that load, and also work wonderfully with 7/8th's ounce.

Before I discovered Vectan's 'AS' for my Rio blue loads, I was loading that exact same load in 1-ounce: 20.0 grains (original) Clays, CB-6100, 1-ounce #8 & #7.5, Rio G-600. I have loaded many a thousands of those loads.

But then (old, original) Clays disappeared, and Vectan's 'AS' appeared, and I started using that (without even changing the powder bushing), and never looked back. Great wad, great primer, great load, great EVERYthing.

The only thing that I do when reloading the Rio blues (that I don't do with the clear Fiocchi's), is that I do a 100% hull inspection to look for raised base wads. I got to where I can "palm" 6-7 of them by the headstamps in my left hand and visually peer inside to make sure I see the tip of the primer flush with the base wad.


PM Sent.. I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:46 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
Posts: 1203
Location: northern Oklahoma
Ksprayberry wrote:



PM Sent.. I think.

You also have incoming mail too.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:47 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 9960
Location: Covington, WA USA
Got em both, - the PM and the e-mail (With OldTech's photos) :

Image
Image

Gosh dang O.T.S., them's some nice looking reloads, and yer right, them are some nice flat crimps, and no signs of a stack height issues at all really. But those aren't Rio hulls either, - I think those are Challenger hulls ? I think the base wad in the Rio blues are cupped up more than most of the Euro hulls, so maybe those Challenger hulls have a bit more volume than the Rios ?

Any event, buy the looks of your second photo, there's got to be a good deal of 'shot over cup'.

And K-Spray Berries, I'll get some CB-6100's out to you to try.

Also, I should have mentioned the new(ish) Fiocchi H24 (24mm) wads at Graf and Sons :

Image

And they are surprisingly cheap too, *especially* with that $7.95 flat-rate shipping deal that they have.

They might even be cheaper than what you can get the Claybuster CB-6100's for.

I was given some to play with by a member here, and I was pretty impressed with them, and did a little bit of testing with them, and compared them to the CB-6100's, and of course the expensive Gualandi GU-1225's (when I still had some, and they were still available).

Graph's Fiocchi H24 vs: GU-1125:

Image

Graph's Fiocchi H24 vs: CB-6100:

Image

I also got some of Graf's Fiocchi H27's to play with, and it's a great wad no doubt !
Read about it (and see the photo's) in this Euro hulls sub forum :

viewtopic.php?f=248&t=441605

Ironically, the chrono data that you will see in the above thread is 1-year old to the DAY, - 8/17/2016, one day after my Birthday of 8/16/2016, and again yesterday, 8/17/2017.

And if you are even remotely thinking about buying some of those Fiocchi H24 (and H27) wads from Graf and Sons (which you probably should do), then you ought to jump on that Vectan powder deal: 20% off PLUS free HAZMAT with $7.95 flat-rate shipping. That puts Vectan Prima-V on your doorstep for $107.53/keg :

Image

If you didn't get any Vectan powder, the wads are $11.89/bag to your door. I was getting CB-6100's locally at my club for about $10/bag including tax, so that's why I settled on the Neon green CB-6100's for my Rio's and Fiocchi 1-ounce loadings (with Vectan's AS) :

Image

The CB-6100 is a tall wad. I get a (rare) occasional "tenting" in the clear Fiocchi's with the CB-6100 if I don't crimp down to the full .055". But that is definitely more the exception than the norm, and have never-ever seen that in the Rio hulls. Tiki the cat (AKA the Q/A inspector) approves.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:46 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
Posts: 1203
Location: northern Oklahoma
Rep,

They are Challengers, but I had a few RIO's that had slipped in the batch, I should have included those in the pic, but this is what I was loading when I took the pic. I load the RIOs with the same recipe, crimps are exactly the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:29 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6010
Location: Eastern Nebraska
People can repeat "Always follow a published recipe" as often as they want. Still does not mean some published recipes don't fit worth a damn. They may be safe but some of them will not fit without a LOT of wad pressure (and probably bulging crimps in a week or two) or dished in crimps. As best I can tell Alliant, Hodgdon, and Lymans are all guilty of publishing some loads that are a very poor fit. BPI has published some Vectan loads that I won't even attempt because I know they won't fit.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:20 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
Posts: 1203
Location: northern Oklahoma
albatros wrote:
People can repeat "Always follow a published recipe" as often as they want. Still does not mean some published recipes don't fit worth a damn. They may be safe but some of them will not fit without a LOT of wad pressure (and probably bulging crimps in a week or two) or dished in crimps. As best I can tell Alliant, Hodgdon, and Lymans are all guilty of publishing some loads that are a very poor fit. BPI has published some Vectan loads that I won't even attempt because I know they won't fit.


I will raise a glass to that statement fo shizzle. :wink: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:42 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Posts: 9960
Location: Covington, WA USA
Well, I think we got two possibly unresolved issues at play here ....

Clearly there isn't a stack height issue with Oldtechshooter with this wad and his ~19.5 grains of Red dot (or promo?). I've heard that Promo is a pretty dense powder.

So maybe that's the difference: OP's 20 grains of (old or new?) Clays vs. Red dot/Promo ?

Or is it the difference in machines in that one has a dedicated finishing crimper cup, and other does not ?


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:14 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6010
Location: Eastern Nebraska
Promo is denser than Red Dot (at least usually.) But, not by a whole lot. I have been through 4-5 jugs of it and it is generally about one bushing size down from the Red Dot chart. Keep in mind that Red Dot us usually about one bushing up from the chart.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Blue Hull mushrooming
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:16 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
Posts: 1203
Location: northern Oklahoma
Republican wrote:
Well, I think we got two possibly unresolved issues at play here ....

Clearly there isn't a stack height issue with Oldtechshooter with this wad and his ~19.5 grains of Red dot (or promo?). I've heard that Promo is a pretty dense powder.

So maybe that's the difference: OP's 20 grains of (old or new?) Clays vs. Red dot/Promo ?

Or is it the difference in machines in that one has a dedicated finishing crimper cup, and other does not ?

Yes, this. Kayspraybery only said he was loading on a single stage press. Some have a camming crimp station, some don't. Regardless, I found when I used to load everything on everything on my old TEXAN DP II, I would crush hulls constantly trying to get a decent close on things. I now can crimp the same loads on the same hulls with ease with the two stage of a Grabber. That seems to be too much pressure on SW (or any hulls for that matter, I did it on AAHS too) to try to do it all in one step

Works for me.




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