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 Post subject: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:46 pm 
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Posts: 350
Some dummy (me) screwed up and I got 2000 Federal primers when what I wanted was Winchester. Senior moment.

I usually load AAHS and Gun Club hulls with 1.0 ounce of shot, ClayBuster clones of the Winchester 1 ounce wad, W209 primers, and 17.5 grains of Titewad. Lyman claims I would be safe if I use Federal primers instead.

For instance, Lyman claims my load only gives 8,300 psi. They don't list an equivalent load with the same wad using F209A primers but 8,300 is pretty low.

For 1-1/8 ounce loads, Lyman gives a direct comparison. For 1-1/8 ounce loads using the 1-1/8 ounce ClayBuster clone, Lyman claims my load gives 9,300 psi with W209s and 11,100 psi with F209As. The velocity is only 5 fps different.

So I think I'm safe substituting Federal primers for Winchester, for 7/8, 1.0, and 1-1/8 ounce loads. However...

The one thing that bothers me is that Hodgdon lists no 1-1/8 ounce loads with more than 16.4 grains using Federal primers. They claim that gives 10,800 psi, whereas their 17.8 grain load with Winchester primers only gives 8900.

Perhaps Hodgdon is inferring that 16.4 grains is maximum with Federal primers. Lyman says it isn't. But even if this were true, I think I'd be safe using Federals in 7/8 or 1.0 ounce loads.

Any wisdom would be appreciated.




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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Go to Hodgdon.com. There are several recipies using the fed 209a and the components you mention. Google is your friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Titewad is a good, versatile powder. But like all powders, it has its sweet spot and 1 1/8 oz approaches the end of its versatility. The data shows how that Fed primer is hotter than the others and with certain powders much hotter than with others. The data suggests you should not try to go above 1145 fps with Titewad, Fed primers and 1 1/8 oz of shot. Below that, Titewad and Fed primers are OK to much higher speeds.

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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:13 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
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IndyCA35 wrote:
I usually load AAHS and Gun Club hulls with 1.0 ounce of shot, ClayBuster clones of the Winchester 1 ounce wad, W209 primers, and 17.5 grains of Titewad.


Hodgdon has loads for both AAHS and Gun Clubs using Federal 209As and that load.


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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:21 am 
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Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 4:41 pm
Posts: 350
ShowMe wrote:
IndyCA35 wrote:
I usually load AAHS and Gun Club hulls with 1.0 ounce of shot, ClayBuster clones of the Winchester 1 ounce wad, W209 primers, and 17.5 grains of Titewad.


Hodgdon has loads for both AAHS and Gun Clubs using Federal 209As and that load.


I know that.

That's why I quoted the pressures in those loads in my original post.

My concern now is that Hodgdon and Lyman may differ in whether or not 17.5 grains of TiteWad is safe with 1-1/8 ounce loads if primers are changed.


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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:22 am 
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jdwaddle wrote:
Go to Hodgdon.com. There are several recipies using the fed 209a and the components you mention. Google is your friend.


jdwaddle:

I did that before posting, obviously. Read my post for my real concerns.


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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:25 am 
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Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 4:41 pm
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Nebs wrote:
Titewad is a good, versatile powder. But like all powders, it has its sweet spot and 1 1/8 oz approaches the end of its versatility. The data shows how that Fed primer is hotter than the others and with certain powders much hotter than with others. The data suggests you should not try to go above 1145 fps with Titewad, Fed primers and 1 1/8 oz of shot. Below that, Titewad and Fed primers are OK to much higher speeds.


Nebs:

Thank you for your reply. That's what I'm thinking. My TiteWad powder charge is safe with either primer provided I use 1.0 ounce loads. But the two sources (Lyman and Hodgdon) seem to disagree about the maximum 1-1/8 ounce load. Best to use only Winchester primers for 1-1/8 ounce unless powder charge and velocity are reduced. At least, that's what the data infers.


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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:29 am 
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IndyCA35 wrote:
Nebs wrote:
Titewad is a good, versatile powder. But like all powders, it has its sweet spot and 1 1/8 oz approaches the end of its versatility. The data shows how that Fed primer is hotter than the others and with certain powders much hotter than with others. The data suggests you should not try to go above 1145 fps with Titewad, Fed primers and 1 1/8 oz of shot. Below that, Titewad and Fed primers are OK to much higher speeds.


Nebs:

Thank you for your reply. That's what I'm thinking. My TiteWad powder charge is safe with either primer provided I use 1.0 ounce loads. But the two sources (Lyman and Hodgdon) seem to disagree about the maximum 1-1/8 ounce load. Best to use only Winchester primers for 1-1/8 ounce unless powder charge and velocity are reduced. At least, that's what the data infers.


All listed loads that you are talking about were safe on the day of the test and still are. Pick one, load it and don't worry. Have fun shooting them.

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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:38 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
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IndyCA35 wrote:
ShowMe wrote:
IndyCA35 wrote:
I usually load AAHS and Gun Club hulls with 1.0 ounce of shot, ClayBuster clones of the Winchester 1 ounce wad, W209 primers, and 17.5 grains of Titewad.


Hodgdon has loads for both AAHS and Gun Clubs using Federal 209As and that load.


I know that.


If you know that, you should know Hodgdon's published data for 1 1/8 ounce?


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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:35 pm 
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The logical answer is very simple. If you don't wish to believe Lymans data, then don't use the Federals in 1-1/8 oz. loads Problem solved.

Purchase some Winchester 209's for your 1-1/8 oz loads, and use the Federals in 1 oz loads. The 2000 Federals will be consumed before you know it and then you won't have anything to worry about.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: Substituting FEderal primers for Winchester
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
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Location: Eastern Nebraska
Lymans lists your EXACT recipe with 17.5 grains and 1 1/8 ounce in AAHS. They say it is safe. But you are worried. What is it that some one on this site can tell you that will mean more (or provide more comfort) than what Lymans has published? Certainly if it is safe with 1 1/8 then it is safe with 1 or 7/8.

Keep in mind that Lymans and Hodgdon do no use the same criteria as to what they publish. Lymans publishes very specific loads that have quite a variety of velocities. Hodgdon picks desired velocities and then lists a recipe to produce them. For Titewad, AAHS, and 1 1/8 ounce they list recipes to produce velocities of 1090, 1145, and 1200 IF they believe they are safe. If they feel the recipe to produce 1200 is over what ever limit they have established, they do not list such a recipe. This does not mean that anything over the top one they list is unsafe. It might well be you could safely get 1170 or 1180. But, those are not velocities for which they publish recipes. And, this is a good example of why most of us use multiple references when researching loads.




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