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 Post subject: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Are there any gouges on where to set the taper die on a MEC progressive?

For most of the stations I've seen gouges that tell you much change you get with a given adjustment.... 1 flat on the collet adjuster nut equals _____, or 1/2 turn for the crimp die will change the crimp depth approx. _____, etc. but I don't recall seeing anything about the taper die.

I ask because I just started loading 28ga and the 9000g I picked up was set up seemingly perfectly. But, when I went out to try them in my new toy (another story), it seems like there may be just a tick of mushrooming since the shells don't just drop in. They need just a bit of help. They don't need to be forced in but almost all of them need a little push.

Any mushrooming isn't obviously visible but are there any measurements of I can check on the finished shells, or measurements for where the die sits on the press or a way to get a better taper other than a WAG and then trial-and -error?




Last edited by Stuck-N-Kali on Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Yes, there are some good tips.
In fact, realllly recently, like this week, someone posted a topic on this and then REPOSTED a thread from DLM that had great gouge in it on exactly this. I just looked and didnt see it, probably has a different name, but it's in this weeks renovated threads.

He is much more the expert and it was very well written, so look for it, but just so you have the gist of it:
-- unhook the indexer so the unit doesn't drive forward or drop shot/powder and you can pull handle up and down, MEC9000
-- raise taper die all the way up, lower handle with a finished shell (without taper yet) in the final station and hold it, lower taper die so it touches top of shell. THEN lower it one more turn or so?
-- hit the shell, look at taper. Probably will have to lower it another turn or two, keep hitting shell.

Basically you just bottom it out on top of a shell, then tweak it down a few turns until you get good taper.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:34 pm 
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Here it is, bottom of the page, "Final Crimp Tool" thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=464574


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:00 pm 
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I saw that but since it was in reference to a Sizemaster with a single die to crimp and add some taper at the same time, I'm not sure it works for the separate taper die on a 9000 or Grabber. My crimps look great but I'm thinking the "snugness" I'm feeling is a lack of enough taper. ??


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:10 pm 
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Turn it down 1/2 turn and test until you get the desired amount of taper. If you go too far you will get a wrinkle in the hull just above the brass. Back it up 1/4 turn. Some things just are not an exact science.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Be sure to set that die with hulls in the other stations to take up the wear in the linkage more effectively. It is there but we don't know how bad it is on your press.

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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:27 pm 
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My approach:
Raise it several turns. Put a shell that came out of station 5 (AND looks good) into station 6. Run the press down and hold it. Run the taper crimp die down till it touches the hull. Rause the oress, drop the die another half turn and tighten the lock nut. Check a few shells coming out. Slide your fingers up past the crimp. If you fell ANY noticeable ridge, drop the taper die another 1/4 turn or so.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:59 pm 
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Good info, guys. Thanks
:D


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:33 pm 
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UPDATE!

Well, you learn something new everyday.

I just got off the phone with MEC and saved myself a ton of frustration. It seems that the taper die only tapers on the 12ga and 20ga machines. On the 28ga and .410 machines the crimping and tapering is all done at station 5 and if I understood the tech correctly, the die is the same one used on their single stage machines. The "die" at station 6 on the 28 and .410 is basically a dummy die.

According to him, in order to get rid of the slight mushrooming I'm getting, I need to adjust the cam at station 5.

Good to know since I'd probably OD'd on my BP med's if I had tried to fix things by playing at station 6!
:lol:


Oh, and I did confirm that my reloads have a bit of a mushroom. I found a box of new 28ga AAs on a shelf and they drop right into my gun while my reloads have that bit of resistance from the plastic on the hull.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE ALERT
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Well that's very interesting for 2 reasons,
1) mine have both worked forever
2) Vette Jockey just got a new taper die from MEC for his 28 gauge that works as designed
see here viewtopic.php?f=13&t=465039


Steve

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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE ALERT
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Steve Y wrote:
Well that's very interesting for 2 reasons,
1) mine have both worked forever
2) Vette Jockey just got a new taper die from MEC for his 28 gauge that works as designed
see here viewtopic.php?f=13&t=465039


Steve

Steve has it right. I changed NOTHING on my loader but the final crimp die. I went from having shells that wouldn't drop into my Kolar tubes to ones that would drop all the way in with ZERO resistance.
Stuck-N-Kali's answer from MEC is about par for the course for them. That is, their techs only give the right answer about 50% of the time. If you have a question about MEC loaders and want the correct answer 100% of the time, post it here. Steve Y, Curly, Albatross, DL Marcum, and possibly others, WILL give you the right answer.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE ALERT
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:55 pm 
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As I stated in Vette Jockey's thread, I am not a 28ga guy. But, it is kind of hard to believe Mec installs another die just for looks but it doesn't do anything.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE ALERT
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:13 pm 
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I must be on a roll since most of the time when I've contacted MEC and do what they suggest, they've been right on.

I had seen that thread but it didn't register that it was on VJ's 28ga press. Probably a low coffee situation since we know it wasn't a senior moment!
:wink: :wink:

And VJ, did you compare the new taper die with the one that wasn't getting it done? ,,,and if you did, were you able to see what the problem may have been?


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE ALERT
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Read what you want to into that thread, but it is only about 1/2 true. But, it is also true that 90% of the tapering of the hull is accomplished by a correct cam setting, at station 5. The finishing die at station 6 serves a purpose though, and is NOT a "Do Nothing" die as would be suggested by Stuck-n-Kali's post.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE ALERT
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:53 am 
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D L Marcum wrote:
Read what you want to into that thread, but it is only about 1/2 true. But, it is also true that 90% of the tapering of the hull is accomplished by a correct cam setting, at station 5. The finishing die at station 6 serves a purpose though, and is NOT a "Do Nothing" die as would be suggested by Stuck-n-Kali's post.
DLM

'Read what you want' into a post but I was not suggesting anything. Rather I was merely reporting what I'd been told by the CS guy at MEC.

That said, I contacted our local shop that does most of the supplying of components to reloaders around here and who's a MEC dealer and, if I recall correctly, back when MEC showed authorized repair shops, he was on their list. When I told him what the CS guy had told me, he also called BS. He has some 28ga taper dies in stock and checked and said you can definitely see a radius up at the top on the inside.

DL, I'm curious about your comment about the cam adjustment affecting the taper. My crimps look good with no swirls, no holes in the middle and good crimp depth (eyeballed, not measured) so what should I be looking for to decide whether my problem is more likely to be a cam setting issue or a taper die one. ??

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:50 am 
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600jrs and Sizemasters do not have a final taper crimp die. They do have the same cam crimp closer die as a 9000 or Grabber. They are quite capable of turning out fine crimps. However they can be a bit unforgiving on a recipe that does it have ideal stack height. It can take more trial and error adjustment trying to accomplish everything with two crimp dies rather than 3. If you have well used AAHHS hulls that are starting to get pinholes at the base of the folds, they will have a tendency to flare out a bit even though the crimp itself is about right. The taper crimp die takes this out nicely. I load all my 20ga on a Sizemaster and have no problems getting a good crimp. There are times with 12 ga that I am glad I have a taper crimp die on my 9000.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Stuck-N-Kali
This is a copy of a previous post.

Most people do NOT have straight in their minds what the CAM actually does. There are all kinds of convoluted beliefs as to what it does.

Adding more cam, (lowering it at the adjustment slot), causes the crimp die to move downward slightly at the near bottom of the stroke. The die has a taper at the inner top of the die that when pushed lower will in fact push the flare at the end of the hull inward, closing the hole in the center tighter, and leave the end of the hull slightly rounded.

SO, in most cases, a properly adjusted CAM will reduce or eliminate any flare on the end of the reloaded shell, and probably leave it slightly rounded.

When adjusting the crimp station, the CAM is the LAST thing you adjust. Adjust the crimp starter first, then adjust the seating stem to get the proper depth. When you are getting a correct fold of the crimp petals, and the correct depth set, THEN adjust the cam to eliminate the flare.

NOTE: Initially, the cam adjustment should be set at least 2/3 of the way up, while the other adjustments are being made. Then, and only then, lower the cam enough to eliminate the flare and round the end of the shell.

Additional explanation:
The above adjustment is really addressing a single stage press, however it works equally well on a progressive press, PRIOR TO adjusting the Finishing Die at station 6. Contact on the hull at station 6 should NOT be excessive as it will crush the side of the hull down next to the brass. Just enough contact to smooth out the final crimp is sufficient.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:24 pm 
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I think the little light is finally coming on! :idea:

I saw the post from albatros this morning and the info about the cam-crimp die being the same on the single stage and progressive machines made sense and got me thinking. My Sizemasters left home a few years ago to go and live at my son's so I wound up downloading a SM owners manual and comparing adjustment instructions and ultimately part no's to the progressives. Obviously the part no's show a difference for the appropriate gauge but they're basically the same. There is a little different no. for 12ga and 20ga for the progressives but the others are identical. Whoda thunk it?

Also, in the manual for the SM, there's a nifty little cross-section drawing that shows what the inside of the cam-crimp die looks like. Having seen that, the post the DL just copied here makes perfect sense!

So now with this newfound insight, and having found a box of new 28ga AAs on a shelf, let me ask a couple more questions. I don't think my recipe is contributing to any issues since it's a pretty universal one...
AA-HS once fired
13gr (12.8 actually) of 20/28
CB5034-28HS
W209
3/4oz #8

- If I put an empty hull in sta. 5 and pull the handle, I know I'll get an "innie" but would it be a valid comparison to check it's finished height against a new factory shell?
- Any problem with putting flared reloads in at 5 to use to adjust the crimp cam?
- Earlier someone suggested putting a finished shell in at 6 and lowering the die until it makes contact. Would that work (aka make life easier) using a factory shell at 5 and/or 6?

This old dog may still learn a new trick or two. :lol:

Thanks again guys.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:33 pm 
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As noted elsewhere, I am not a 28 ga guy. But, I think the priciples remain the same.

If you put a straight empty shell (that has been in no other stations) into Station 5 and pull the handle you will get a squashed/buckled shell proving nothing.

I am a big fan of adjusting presses (all presses, 366, 9000, whatever) IN SEQUENCE. Sticking shells in various condition into various stations and attemting to discern something is not advised (at least IMHO.)

As I said earlier in this post, the way to adjust the taper crimp (station 6) is to start with a reload that came out of station 5. Perhaps I was not clear earlier, but I meant a reload that came out of station 5 and LOOKED GOOD WITH EVERYTHING PREVIOUS TO THIS CORRECT.

You have 6 stations all doing various things at tbe same time. They all do better OR WORSE if the shell coming into them is correct or NOT. The appropriate time to adjudt station 5 is after stations 1-4 are set up correctly. The appropriate time to adjust station 6 is after stations 1-5 are set up correctly. Station 6 is very much fine tuning. It takes a good serviceable reload and adds a bit of taper. It does not correct for mis-adjustments on stations 1-5.


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 Post subject: Re: MEC Taper Die - UPDATE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:11 pm 
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I not talking about doing things out of order now that I better understand what all is going on at #5. But based on the few times (very few fortunately) that I've been distracted and didn't get a wad in, that shell will continue around and come out of of the press looking pretty normal other than the crimp being an "innie" and it starting to spill some pellets as it goes down the ramp. Not squashed or buckled at all.

I haven't done that (yet) on my 28ga 9000 but I have on both the 12 and 20 and like you said, the principle should be the same. My thinking being that whether or not a shell getting "crimped" at #5 has anything in it or not, the height at which the hull starts to roll over would be determined by how the cam-crimp is adjusted and I could see how that height compares to a new factory shell in order to give me an idea how far off the adjustment might be.

THEN, once I get things right at 5, loosening the die at 6 and lowering it on to a factory shell to get me close on 6.
??




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