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 Post subject: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:35 pm 
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Winchester Xpert HV steel hulls?
Their straight wall correct?
I did not find any load information specific for them, what do they compare to?
Thanks.
I ran across a bunch of them 400ish free. I will load them with steel #B.



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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:29 pm 
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Location: Wenatchee, WA
Not a very good hull, but if they are all you got, they are usually
referred to as Win poly formed in the Lyman handbpok. Watch the base wad height, they have a variety.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:46 pm 
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Cool thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:08 am 
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If they are the X-pert hulls with the flat red base wad they are more like a straight wall hull than a tapered wall hull.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:54 am 
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Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
The thing about hulls is they all have different characteristics. The so called tapered wall hulls have varying degrees of taper & sometimes none at all. There is cross over but tapered wall hulls were designed to burn target load powders more efficiently & are usually target hulls. You can't always have everything. Hunting hulls like the ones you generally see in steel shot loads, have thin walls & a disc base. They have greater capacity & generally run lower pressure with heavy loads but they don't last as long. You usually have to give up something to get something. My take is to use the hull (components) that are most compatible with what you are trying to load. Winchester has put Xpert on a lot of different hulls. The first I saw were paper upland bird loads. I don't know what all they put that name on today. Rumor has it they have put "Winchester" on some imported hulls. Also, nothing is cast in concrete. Federal has some essentially one piece hulls that make great heavy loads. I consider all individually based on their merits. I load Win. 3" 12 ga. & 3.5" 10 ga. hulls that fit your description. They have different stampings but are all basically the same. I sometimes cut longer 3.5" hulls down to 3" for shorter loads. They have worked great for tungsten steel & bismuth loads & also 2 3/4" lead pheasant loads.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:46 am 
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Location: NE South Dakota
Xpert/Universal Hulls are not the old Polyformed hulls from years past. Polyformed hulls came with a variety of basewads/basewad heights, etc.

The hulls themselves are made of a weaker/softer material than AAHS but internally they are almost identical and have the same style 2 piece hull. I have found they have maybe a little more case volume, but that could just be case stretch.

They are difficult for an experienced reloader to master IMO and aren't good for more than 1 or 2 loadings usually.

I used to load them, but they are a PITA as everything will go good and then a random hull won't work. I finally came to the conclusion that I have literally 50,000 other hulls easier and better to reload (Gun Clubs, STS, AAHS, Gold Medals, etc.) and pitched them.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:59 am 
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The hulls I am referring to above are not Universal hulls. They are flat disc based reifenhousser type hulls. I make no claim to know what Winchester has loaded in these hulls or what they were labeled with & am sorry for any confusion. The hulls I have experience with were originally loaded with heavy steel loads & sold under various Winchester labels but are the same basic hull. Winchester has had more hull variations than you can shake a stick at. The first "Polyformed" hulls had a paper base wad. "Polyformed" just means they are made of plastic, at least in part. I don't want to get hung up on Win. trade names. The hulls I refer to are very similar to polyformed hulls but they are not the exact same hull. I think it is fair to refer to the Universal hull as a version of the polyformed hull. I have never heard anybody refer to it as a great hull but it duplicates the performance of the HS hull & works in a pinch. Nothing is cast in concrete & there are exceptions but go in a sporting goods store & look at heavy magnum loads & note what hulls they are loaded in. Now go look at target loads & promo loads & see what hulls they are loaded in. What do you think accounts for the differences you see?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:28 am
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The Xpert hulls I was referring to are labeled Winchester Xpert Target, they have an 8 point crimp and I have loaded them as a 1 & done hull for trap.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:22 pm
Posts: 382
Location: NE South Dakota
geometric wrote:
The hulls I am referring to above are not Universal hulls. They are flat disc based reifenhousser type hulls. I make no claim to know what Winchester has loaded in these hulls or what they were labeled with & am sorry for any confusion. The hulls I have experience with were originally loaded with heavy steel loads & sold under various Winchester labels but are the same basic hull. Winchester has had more hull variations than you can shake a stick at. The first "Polyformed" hulls had a paper base wad. "Polyformed" just means they are made of plastic, at least in part. I don't want to get hung up on Win. trade names. The hulls I refer to are very similar to polyformed hulls but they are not the exact same hull. I think it is fair to refer to the Universal hull as a version of the polyformed hull. I have never heard anybody refer to it as a great hull but it duplicates the performance of the HS hull & works in a pinch. Nothing is cast in concrete & there are exceptions but go in a sporting goods store & look at heavy magnum loads & note what hulls they are loaded in. Now go look at target loads & promo loads & see what hulls they are loaded in. What do you think accounts for the differences you see?


Mostly I think it is a combo of variance in length and that the material they are made of is very weak/soft so if everything isn't exactly perfect it messes the crimp up or buckles the hull.

I have had pretty decent luck with their 3.5" steel expert hull but it is much tougher material than the target hulls.

The expert target/universal/super target hull is a AAHS clone, but much weaker/softer materials for the main hull construction than the AA.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:30 am 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:05 pm
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The expert target/universal/super target hull is a AAHS clone, but much weaker/softer materials for the main hull construction than the AA.

The Winchester Super Target loads (1250 fps 1 oz) that we are getting here in Australia use two different cases (and primer, powder and wad). The US made version uses an AA HS clone case, Win AA wad and primer. The euro (French) version uses a straight wall case, euro primer & wad and Vectan powder.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:30 pm 
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Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
I think we need to back up & regroup a little. The OP was asking about Win. HV Xpert Steel hulls that he is considering loading with steel BB's. Well maybe some of you know something I don't know, which is great. I am always willing to learn. The first thing we need to do is identify the hull so we are all talking about the same thing. Winchester & Remington hulls are of two basic types, compression formed & reifenhauser. Currently, polyformed hulls are reifenhauser hulls as they have an extruded plastic tube & a separate plastic basewad. Hulls with paper basewads are not technically reifenhauser hulls. Win. no longer makes compression formed hulls. Win. HS & Universal hulls are reifenhauser hulls that have a high, tapered base wad that mimics the ballistics of the older CF hull. A hull with such a base wad is either a HS or a Universal hull. Win. HV Xpert Steel is a load type, it is not a type of hull. If you can identify the hull, load data for that hull is appropriate. Hull plastic does vary. Who knows how many different runs of how many different plastics go into Win. hulls in a year or even that Win. made a specific hull that bears it's name. Flexibility in a hull is not necessarily a bad thing & is associated with reduced pressure. Heavy magnum & non toxic loads that I have seen are all loaded in reifenhauser hulls. You have to match the data with the correct hull. I don't know what Win. is loading in hulls marked "HV Xpert Steel" these days but traditionally, the "Xpert" line was comprised of light upland loads which indicates it probably lacks enough hull volume to hold the shot quantity that will produce adequate pattern density at the longer distances that "BBs " are chosen to accomodate!


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:33 pm 
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Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
------


Last edited by geometric on Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:06 pm 
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Right or wrong here is what I came up with.
In the Lyman #5 book of loads, I found ...
CSD wads, Fed 209a, 1 1/8 oz steel B shot, 36 gr steel powder.
Fits perfect. Crimps great.
I ran it across my Magnetospeed and the average 1400 fps.
Outstanding pattern at 45 yards with an extra full choke in my 3500M Stoeger.



.


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Last edited by 870Slugger on Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:58 pm 
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Well, if it works, go for it. What is the question? What hull are they calling for? 1 1/8 ounce steel Bs is a lot of shot for a 1 1/8 oz. lead shot hull. Do they use the same hull?? Not saying it isn't doable but it doesn't leave a lot of room for cushion wads. A typical 3.5" 10 ga. Win. steel load has a capacity of 1 5/8 oz. steel shot. Which hull is it, a flat base polyformed hull or a universal hull? My guess is it is a flat base polyformed hull (Win. product description) as that should have more volume. I don't think they load steel shot in the universal hull but I can't verify that as I haven't researched it nor am I privy to what Win. loads in what hull. Loading a load designed for the flat BW, polyformed hull in a universal hull could result in high pressure. It sounds like the steel Xpert hull may be specifically designed for loading steel but without sample hulls in hand for comparison or a detailed hull description in the data, we are back to playing a guessing game. All of the Win. hulls I load non toxic shot in were originally loaded with steel shot. I don't shoot steel. I use Hodgdons data for Hevi Shot & Bismuth & have been getting excellent results. Excepting bismuth, I haven't loaded any 2 3/4 " 12 ga. non-toxic loads so I have no hands on experience with your question. Good luck, hope you find the answer. The reloading manuals I have don't show any steel specific hulls.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:55 am 
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The hull is a 3" steel shot hull.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:14 am 
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geometric wrote:
A hull with such a base wad is either a HS or a Universal hull. Win. HV Xpert Steel is a load type, it is not a type of hull.


Sorry to butcher your quote Geo. Winchester has some steel shot loads in straight wall hulls with a separate basewad. They are not Cheddites but construction is similar. I have not seen anyone put a name to them. A picture of a disected hull would have added clarity to this thread.

870Slugger- Which hull was listed in the source recipe that you ended up using?

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:51 am 
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Quote:
870Slugger- Which hull was listed in the source recipe that you ended up using

In the book of Lyman, they have a cut in half picture of a Winchester poly formed, plastic Basewad that looks exactly like the ones I have. so I went with that. They call for a BPI ranger wad, but they have been discounted long ago. I used their CSD wads 1 1/8 oz steel wads. I'm about 80 fps under their published speed with the same load and charge.
I feel there is no problem shooting them. The ones I have tried sound and feel the same as any 1 1/8 1400 fps steel shell I shoot.Thanks for all the help.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:10 pm 
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I have a distinct feeling you don't understand what I have been trying to tell you. I wish people would stop using the terms "straight wall" & "tapered wall". All hulls are straight wall that are formed from extrusions. The only tapered hulls are those made by some sort of a plastic molding process like compression formed hulls which are for the most part target hulls. All Winchester hulls made today are, to my knowledge, straight wall. The HS & universals are sw but treated as tapered for reloading purposes. They have a tapered BW. You didn't say you were loading 3" Winchester hulls. If I had known that, the problem would have been sorted out much quicker. Maybe you did but I don't recall seeing it. I believe your 3" hulls are the same hulls I have been loading for years. I don't think you will get 20 reloads out of many of them but they produce excellent field loads IMHO. I don't think many, if there are any at all, tapered hull factory shells offered with steel shot. The good news is you seem to be on the right track. All steel shot wads are essentially the same except for length & volume & generally produce similar pressure & ballistics. As you know BPI makes others as does Precision & Reloading Specialties Inc.. Sounds like you are good to go but it is always advisable to verify pressure is within safe limits. Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:10 pm 
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Sorry I thought I had said 3" but I went back and looked I did not.
I guess I figured most ALL 1 1/8 oz/ 1 1/4 oz Steel shells are 3" My mistake.
I'm shooting them in 3 1/2" chambers and their "Safe" presser ratings are far above a 3" chamber. I know from the speed I have to be in the right ballpark as far as safe presser.
I do like the way they load up and crimp. I normally use Rio 3" hulls but I can't get io primers Right now. I can get Feds. I have Nobal Sports, Fiocchi, Primers but there not the same size. The waterfowl season is over now maybe things will be closer to normal by fall...

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Xpert hulls ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:07 pm 
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The 3" and 3 1/2" expert hulls from steel shot are really close to the regular drylock hulls in construction. Some would argue identical.

Call the powder manufacturers if you are questioning what you have.




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