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 Post subject: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:26 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
First, I’m new to shotshell reloading.

I’m looking up reloading data for Federal Top Gun shotshells.
Are these the same as “Paper Basewads”?
They sure look plastic to me, and don’t match anything in Lymans fifth edition handbook.

The only place I find the Top Gun brand listed with load data is Federal‘s website.




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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:51 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:11 pm
Posts: 3580
Location: Afton, VA
No, those are not paper base wads.

They are not in the Lyman's because they came out after that pub was out.

I've seen two types with the plastic base wads. One has the silver Federal primer, and takes American primers for reloading. The other had a two tone brass primer that was of European size, and needed a Euro primer to fit tight. American primers can fall out.

I have loaded then using the Top Gun recipes but all were target loads and not pushing the pressure envelope. They actually went together fairly well.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:58 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1302
Location: Soda Springs, Id.
those are the new style.
Federal has been going through a hull crisis the last few years, but I'm pretty positive these are here to stay.

I have only done a couple of load tests with these new style hulls, and they compare fairly close to the new style white gold medal hull.
I ain't sent nuthin off for pressure testing, just that everything fit the same and crimped nicely, the steel seems some hard to me though compared to the old paper base hulls.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:07 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
Appears I have the American version.
The only primers I have are noble sport 686 and Winchester 209’s.

Are there any other places that I could potentially find load data for those primers?
I understand that the noble sports and the Winchesters are somewhat interchangeable.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:12 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
Federal list them in their load data the same as Federal Field and Target, Federal Premium Wing Shock, Federal Game Shock shells with paper base wad.

Federal Hi-Brass game loads appear to have the same construction.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:42 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 245
Aaron, go to www.federalpremium.com>content Documents, there should be a site that you can download a pdf or print out load data for a lot of Federal hulls. I use the load data for the Top Gun with the paper base wad and it works well. It's the same hull as you are showing but the old ones had paper base wads.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:15 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1227
Unless Federal generated new liad data this year, they do t list these at all in any reload data, as they are completely new just recently. They dont match any moad data, may be close to some if you want to guesstimate.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:22 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:00 am
Posts: 15
If memory serves me right when I cut a couple of these hulls open they looked very similar to the rio blue hull so I assumed they had outsourced these shells from Europe. Maybe pop a primer put and measure it to see if it’s euro or American sized.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:58 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 2146
Location: Western Carolina - foothills to the Great Smoky Mtns!
Deleted. See below updated info!

Thank you Dave in AZ!

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(On second thought, flush twice; it's a long way to Annapolis!)


Last edited by thor_sen on Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:10 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1227
Thor sen, unfortunately your info is outdated. Rio closed down all manufacturing at their Marshall site and it is now being purely used as distribution node. They made company announcements about it over a year ago now. Federal was buying all their reifenhauser hulls from Rio Marshall, and they were great hulls, all the game and Target stuff they sold at Walmart in the hundred packs came from Rio and were actually Rio cases. The loss of Rio as a supplier is what caused them to begin loading in these new reifenhauser style cases.

I would measure the volume of these against the federal Rio and normal Rio hulls as well as cheddite, and would load them accordingly and not to Peak pressures without some test.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:20 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 2146
Location: Western Carolina - foothills to the Great Smoky Mtns!
Dave in AZ wrote:
Thor sen, unfortunately your info is outdated. Rio closed down all manufacturing at their Marshall site and it is now being purely used as distribution node. They made company announcements about it over a year ago now. Federal was buying all their reifenhauser hulls from Rio Marshall, and they were great hulls, all the game and Target stuff they sold at Walmart in the hundred packs came from Rio and were actually Rio cases. The loss of Rio as a supplier is what caused them to begin loading in these new reifenhauser style cases. ...


Arrrrrrghhh! I say that not because I had outdated info but because of all the “Made in the USA” jobs that must’ve been lost. I swear, every time I hear about someone who is willing to work, who wants to work, losing their job it is like a jelly fish sting on my psyche! Man, my heart goes out to all those folks and pray they have all landed on their feet!


Dave in AZ wrote:
...I would measure the volume of these against the federal Rio and normal Rio hulls as well as cheddite, and would load them accordingly and not to Peak pressures without some test.


Excellent advice with which I will allow this thread to get back on OP’s original track!

_________________
Maryland: last law-abiding gun-owner out, please flush!
(On second thought, flush twice; it's a long way to Annapolis!)


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:22 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
I loaded some of these guys per this load data except for the NS 209/686 primers.

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-VistaFederalSharedLibrary/default/va6da2c18d139773f814ffa29a4fe54536ef9f978/contentDocuments/catalog/shotshell-reloading-data.pdf


Started with 19g of red dot. Wasn’t enough pressure to cycle a new Browning A5.

Went to 22g of green dot, still didn’t cycle. (FPS was is the 1050 range)

Got up to 22g of red dot before the shotgun cycled but was getting very inconsistent velocity readings, none were higher than 1310 though.

I’d say I’m pretty uncomfortable with this load, it seems way outside of any listed recipe.
Should I be worried or is this within a normal “real world” work up tolerance?
Is the mild primer a reason for the extra powder?


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:52 am
Posts: 10
I inquired with Hodgdon about reloading Federal "Top Gun" hulls with plastic base wads using their Clays powder. Their answer was: "Use the data for Federal Gold Medal Hulls"
I would guess that this would apply to their other powders, but that is just a guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:58 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1227
Aaron871 wrote:
I loaded some of these guys per this load data except for the NS 209/686 primers.

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-VistaFederalSharedLibrary/default/va6da2c18d139773f814ffa29a4fe54536ef9f978/contentDocuments/catalog/shotshell-reloading-data.pdf


Started with 19g of red dot. Wasn’t enough pressure to cycle a new Browning A5.

Went to 22g of green dot, still didn’t cycle. (FPS was is the 1050 range)

Got up to 22g of red dot before the shotgun cycled but was getting very inconsistent velocity readings, none were higher than 1310 though.

I’d say I’m pretty uncomfortable with this load, it seems way outside of any listed recipe.
Should I be worried or is this within a normal “real world” work up tolerance?
Is the mild primer a reason for the extra powder?


Aaron, with respect, you need to do some reading of reloading manuals before you load any more shells. There is no real world work up tolerance and shotshell reloading! There's no going outside of a listed recipe. There is no exceeding the published amount of powder. You don't load and keep increasing the powder until whatever gun you happen to have Cycles. Reloading is not based on cycling of some automatic!

Additionally, you are incorrect about this shell being lumped by federal along with those other shells. You are misreading the data, that is a list of federal Halls did all had a wound paper base wad. If you read the front cover, the federal booklet was produced in 2008, and the data all came from before 2008! There is zero data in there 4 the plastic base wad she'll you were looking at, or the Rio shells that Federal was using for the last three years.

I recommend you get a lymans reloading Edition 5 and read that, or you can read the printed Alliant reloading booklet from cover to cover which includes all of the proper cautions and guidance. Even the data that you were referring to says at the bottom of every single page do not exceed the powder amounts listed.

You're doing an excellent job checking here, and taking some great pictures showing us the shells that you are loading, as well as the base wad. Additionally you're doing a good job trying to research the shell you're using. Unfortunately for you, Federal is terrible at maintaining a consistent Hull. There are so many different labels and terms for federal products that it's difficult to figure out what to use, combined with the fact that the company that owns Federal as well as Alliant powder, have not produced any new shotgun shell recipe data 4 probably close to two decades now. Most of the recipes you're seeing were produced in 2005 and earlier. I have every single yearly booklet that they've published and usually go through them to see what's new , and there's been nothing new except for a few new powders that were introduced like steel and E3.

Honestly the best advice I can give you is to look at Reloading Data for cheddite and Rio shells. Try to get yourself an empty one of each, as well as this Federal you're trying to reload, and just measure the internal volume of all of them by using small shot or water or salt. Your concern is if the one you are trying to use is La smaller volume oh, it will increase the pressure. What you are looking for is to find recipes for a similar Hall then yours, that is a slightly smaller volume, which would mean your shell would be pretty safe to use as a substitute. Again you should be looking at cheddite and Rio, Maybe fiocchi.

The Federal Gold Medal, no longer produced but exactly the same as the Federal Gold Medal Grand, is all one piece and has no separate base wad. It is however fairly close in volume 2 to 2.75 in cheddite Hulls. As such, Reloading Data For That Hull might be useful. But particularly since you will be substituting this slightly larger Hall, you do not want to use anything up at the maximum pressure of 11500. And you certainly don't want to see the powder in any recipe.

Here's a blog I wrote about Federal names vs reloading data names and the confusion:
https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/hull-nam ... explained/

Good luck!

Ps i see from your OP you have Lymans, just reread the parts about not exceeding recipes and subs. Alliant generally said you needed 3000 psi, so 8500 or less, to sub primers... but NS themselves publish that their primer can replace w209. The Lymans was copyright 2007! So they won't have any pics of current hulls.


Last edited by Dave in AZ on Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:15 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
Dave in AZ wrote:
Aaron871 wrote:
I loaded some of these guys per this load data except for the NS 209/686 primers.

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-VistaFederalSharedLibrary/default/va6da2c18d139773f814ffa29a4fe54536ef9f978/contentDocuments/catalog/shotshell-reloading-data.pdf


Started with 19g of red dot. Wasn’t enough pressure to cycle a new Browning A5.

Went to 22g of green dot, still didn’t cycle. (FPS was is the 1050 range)

Got up to 22g of red dot before the shotgun cycled but was getting very inconsistent velocity readings, none were higher than 1310 though.

I’d say I’m pretty uncomfortable with this load, it seems way outside of any listed recipe.
Should I be worried or is this within a normal “real world” work up tolerance?
Is the mild primer a reason for the extra powder?


Aaron, with respect, you need to do some reading of reloading manuals before you load any more shells. There is no real world work up tolerance and shotshell reloading! There's no going outside of a listed recipe. There is no exceeding the published amount of powder. You don't load and keep increasing the powder until whatever gun you happen to have Cycles. Reloading is not based on cycling of some automatic!

Additionally, you are incorrect about this shell being lumped by federal along with those other shells. You are misreading the data, that is a list of federal Halls did all had a wound paper base wad. If you read the front cover, the federal booklet was produced in 2008, and the data all came from before 2008! There is zero data in there 4 the plastic base wad she'll you were looking at, or the Rio shells that Federal was using for the last three years.

I recommend you get a lymans reloading Edition 5 and read that, or you can read the printed Alliant reloading booklet from cover to cover which includes all of the proper cautions and guidance. Even the data that you were referring to says at the bottom of every single page do not exceed the powder amounts listed.


I have lymans fifth edition, I’ve read it, that’s the booklet you’re seeing in the picture.
I’m confused about the “Federal booklet”, I’m not looking at a booklet. I’m looking at Federal‘s website that lists those hulls together? I included a link to that website, but I could not get a screenshot to post here for some reason.

There is definitely a problem that I’m not understanding, that’s why I’m asking a question. But if there’s not enough pressure to cycle the shell out of an auto loader, I sure don’t think it’s going to blow the gun up.

?????

Where is the proper recipe?


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:19 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
I apologize for my frustration, it came from a long journey.

I woke up one day and could no longer by shot shells at the local store. I could not buy primers or powder either. So I found this forum and I read the sticky post “make it easy on yourself“. I ordered the last Lymans fifth edition available at midway USA. Read that son of a b***h front to back. I had to go to an estate sales of a dead farmer to buy primers (12k Over priced noble sport primers that no one wants) can’t get them anywhere else. Scoured all of the tiny gun stores throughout these mountains and got a few pounds of incredibly overpriced different powder. Searched and search for a reloader, eventually ordered one from Mec and waited for it to be built and delivered. You can’t buy hulls anymore, so I’ve got to deal with what I have, that’s a whole bunch a Federal top-flight plastic base wads. Wads/ shot/ charge bars/ shot drop bushings/ i’m sure I’m forgetting a few things because it adds up to well over $1000.00, and hours of searching, reading, and driving. Did you know a lot of the local brick and mortar gun shops are recently out of business, I didn’t know that until I drove an hour to get there…


Anyway, now that I’ve done all that, and I’m trying to put it all together, it’s absolute voodoo compared to metallic reloading. I have custom rifles and custom reloading dies for wildcat rounds, custom muzzleloaders, and bullet casting dies. But all that crap takes a backseat to shotgun reloading, it makes no damn sense at all.

I appreciate everyone here giving their input, because you don’t owe me the time of day. And without you I would be lost in space.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:18 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1227
Aaron, you can't work up loads and shut shell because there are no signs on the shell when you were already over pressure. 11500 PSI does not do the same things at all to a plastic shotshell as 50,000 PSI does to a brass case.

Also there are many many loads that will not cycle a semi-auto, depending on what semi-auto it is and what the load is. Lot of 3.5 inch guns are optimized for heavy hunting loads and won't cycle 7/8 ounce or 1 oz skeet loads. My brother-in-law's Benelli Super Vinci won't cycle anything less than 1 and 1/8 oz!

Why don't you just list exactly what you have being very specific and what you are looking for as a final product, again being very specific, and I will give you my best guess for some good data. I believe I've got every reloading book known to man and most everything in spreadsheets. For example:

Federal Top Gun hole with plastic base wad
Noble sport 209 primer Uline
Wad?
Powder?
Trying for 1 oz number 9 shot lead at 11:50 to 1200 FPS.

Ps, semiauto dont cycle based on pressure. Pressure isnt related to final speed of payload but marginally. A fast burn like red dot could exceed pressure at lowish speeds... you really havent given enough info for folks to help you.
Im not 100% familiar with new A5, is that 3in or 3.5in chamber?
What load were u loading, exactly, payload etc, that didnt cycle?
What load do you really want?
Thx


Last edited by Dave in AZ on Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:48 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
I’ve got:

2-3/4” Federal Top Gun plastic base wad hulls (3k)

Noble Sport 209/686 primers (12k)

Alliant Red Dot, Green Dot, and Hogdon International powder. (maybe 11 pounds total ) Green dot is currently available at the local shop.

12S3, WAA12f114 wads (also have some skeet wads and flight control wads that I use in my muzzleloading shotguns) but wads seem readily available.

Shot= #7.5, #6, #4 buck, 00 buck, .690 RB

I’m loading with a MEC 600 Junior Mark V


I’m looking for a 3 or 3-1/4 Dram 7.5 Dove load.
Would need it to cycle through an Browning A5 Ultimate.

Edit: The new A5 Ultimate shoots two and three-quarter and 3 inch shot shells.

Loads that would not cycle were:
Those Federal Hulls
NS 209/686 primers
12S3 wads
1-1/8 MEC dropper of #7.5
And.... Red dot 19g, 20g, 21g, Green Dot 22g
All these loads were under 1200 ft./s

Finally cycled with 22 grains of red dot.
Velocities were very inconsistent, from 1150-1300


Last edited by Aaron871 on Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:53 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1227
Hehe... dram. That's like telling your landscaper your dimensions in rods and chains...
And you STILL didnt say what payload, 1oz, 1-1/8, what?
What speed do you want? All the data is in speed now...
You posted while I was editing, I will re add my PS here in case u missed it...

Ps semiauto dont cycle based on pressure. Pressure isnt related to final speed of payload but marginally. A fast burn like red dot could exceed pressure at lowish speeds... you really havent given enough info for folks to help you.
Im not 100% familiar with new A5, is that 3in or 3.5in chamber?
What load were u loading, exactly, payload etc, that didnt cycle?
What load do you really want?
Thx


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 Post subject: Re: Hull identification help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:58 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
The new A5 Ultimate shoots two and three-quarter and 3 inch shot shells.

Loads that would not cycle were:
Those Federal Hulls
NS 209/686 primers
12S3 wads
1-1/8 MEC dropper of #7.5
And.... Red dot 19g, 20g, 21g, Green Dot 22g
All these loads were under 1200 ft./s

Finally cycled with 22 grains of red dot.
Velocities were very inconsistent, from 1150-1300

I’m just looking for a load of 7 1/2 that will cycle through the shotgun and break clays. Once I get that figured out I may move on to bigger things, but first things first.




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