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 Post subject: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:19 pm 
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20ga 9000g- brass measures almost exactly .005 bigger than factory loads. Seems to drop in fine BUT on closing my 686 the rim scrapes the breech face. After just a couple closings you can see the scraping on the rim of the case.

So is this an adjustment needed on the final crimp? Brass seems fine so guessing the body is not quite sized right? I don’t feel any resistance when dropping them in the gun.

Thoughts?




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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:46 pm 
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birdhunter39 wrote:
20ga 9000g- brass measures almost exactly .005 bigger than factory loads. Seems to drop in fine BUT on closing my 686 the rim scrapes the breech face. After just a couple closings you can see the scraping on the rim of the case.

So is this an adjustment needed on the final crimp? Brass seems fine so guessing the body is not quite sized right? I don’t feel any resistance when dropping them in the gun.

Thoughts?


Maybe the shell only APPEARS to be seating fully in the chamber. Is the chamber rim recess clean? Is the base of the shell FLAT? Is there perhaps a slight swelling of the brass side right where it flows into the rim that's keeping the shell from seating fully?

What part (orientation) of the base is scraping... bottom? side? top?

Could a badly seated primer be responsible for the problem? What brand of cases are these? Is the brass really "brass" or a cheap substitute?

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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:46 pm 
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birdhunter39 wrote:
So is this an adjustment needed on the final crimp?

No that station only affects the final crimp.

birdhunter39 wrote:
Brass seems fine so guessing the body is not quite sized right? I don’t feel any resistance when dropping them in the gun.


Then the body is fine. No way to "resize" it anyway.

If it was my issue, I would remove the ejectors from the barrels and see if the hull drops in flush to the face.
One thing you might be doing is putting a slight bulge in the hull just above the brass. Does not take much. This is caused by too much crimp from station 5 or too much taper/bevel from station 6.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:50 pm 
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My first guess would be you aren’t getting the brass sized enough so it isn’t sliding into the chamber during closing.

2nd guess would be final crimp not having enough taper, if it’s a MEC you need to adjust the cam over setting.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:54 pm 
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Mec 9000g. Great idea to take ejectors out and test fit!

I did recently tweak crimp starter to close a hole I was getting.

Scraping is the rim. Bottom barrel, bottom of rim. Two or three closures shows considerable wear on rim. Almost like sharpening it.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:58 pm 
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Why is the brass head miking out 0.005" oversize (in other words, 5 thou larger than the factory loads)? Are you unable to adjust the 9000's collet to bring the case head down close to the factory diameter?

You describe the reloads dropping easily into the chamber. But does the surface of the round's head sit down in the chamber exactly flush with the steel walls of the chamber, or is the head surface proud of the walls? If proud, then the reloads are NOT fitting the chamber, probably because they are too large diameter.

Describe the position of the "scrape marks." Are they on the rim of the hull head (on the headstamp surface)? On the breech face of the shotgun? Or both?

Are the scrapes running a stripe up and down the center quarter of the standing breech? That's protruding primers. They need to be seated flush so they don't scrape the breech, and so they will reliably ignite when firing pins hits them.

Vertical running scrapes heavier around the edges of the breech face, and marks on the rim of the hull (which is what I read from your description so far)? You may be shoving the center of the base up into the hull while priming - dishing the head. Is the head (brass) still perfectly flat?

Are there vertical running scrapes across the entire width of the breech face? Possibly dirty hull heads.

Can the "scrape marks" be mostly removed with a brass brush and solvent? Those are not scrape marks, at most they are where the hull head rubs against the breech face.

Are you reloading hulls with solid brass heads (STS, Win AA) or with a plated steel head (can be either silver or brass color). You can tell the head is steel by holding a magnet to the rim of the hull - sticks to steel, does not stick to all-brass.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, after reading your second post made while I was typing the above comments, it sounds a lot like you are having to close the action hard, letting the standing breech shove the oversize hulls into the chamber, and pinching the lower rim of the bottom round as the action closes up. Probably solid-brass heads on the hulls, which would be softer than the breech, and would take all the damage. Try adjusting the resizing to get OD of head down closer to factory specs.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:36 am 
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birdhunter39 wrote:
brass measures almost exactly .005 bigger than factory loads.


garrisonjoe wrote:
Are you unable to adjust the 9000's collet to bring the case head down close to the factory diameter?


.005 over factory has always been more then enough for every 9000 I have set-up if you measure that .005 just above the rim. Measuring the brass where it meets the hull is another story.

If you choose to go less then .005 over you WILL wear out your collet fingers faster, especially on steel bases.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:04 am 
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The .005 was happenstance but i did read here via Curly threads that it is the best practice to prolong collet life.

Feeling a bit foolish here but last night i was trying this with the ejectors up (as they would be after firing). But i guess that doesn't tell the whole story on fit. I will pull barrels off tonight and see how well they drop in when the ejectors aren't extended.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:51 pm 
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Not uncommon on a Kolar or Beretta when shooting a tube set for the case head to drag the breech face as the gun is closing.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:57 pm 
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The de caping pin has a shoulder on it ,if improperly adjusted it can bottom out and slightly bow the case head so slightly you can barely notice it and that will do what you are describing.

Bobcat


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:14 pm 
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First thing I would do is clean the breech face then paint one of the problem shell heads with a sharpie. Close the breech when it’s wet, then open. See what’s scrapped off the shell & what transferred to the breech face. Give you a good start diagnosing the problem,

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:16 pm 
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Bobcat Welding wrote:
The de caping pin has a shoulder on it ,if improperly adjusted it can bottom out and slightly bow the case head so slightly you can barely notice it and that will do what you are describing.


birdhunter39 wrote:
20ga 9000g-



Except the de-capping die /pin on a 9000 is not adjustable.


Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:27 pm 
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Is this something you can feel in terms of resistance when closing the gun or just something you observed?

If it's just something you saw and it has no impact on closing the gun I don't think you have a problem. I just pulled a gun out of the save and the shell in the bottom barrel often rubs on the breach face when I close the gun and I'm sure it's not a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:17 pm 
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YevetS wrote:
Bobcat Welding wrote:
The de caping pin has a shoulder on it ,if improperly adjusted it can bottom out and slightly bow the case head so slightly you can barely notice it and that will do what you are describing.


birdhunter39 wrote:
20ga 9000g-



Except the de-capping die /pin on a 9000 is not adjustable.


Steve

Looks like the after market filled the gap. https://creativereloadingsolutions.com/ ... -12-gauge/

Bobcat


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:45 pm 
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Bobcat Welding wrote:
Looks like the after market filled the gap. https://creativereloadingsolutions.com/ ... -12-gauge/


So they have, but in a situation such as this you have to assume the OP is running a "stock" machine unless they tell you up front of a modified press.

Bobcat Welding wrote:
The de caping pin has a shoulder on it ,if improperly adjusted it can bottom out and slightly bow the case head so slightly you can barely notice it and that will do what you are describing.


Now, please explain how this is possible. As I see it, you have a hull supported/resting on a solid surface, the shell lifter, being de-capped by a solid fixed pin. How is the case head going to bow?? IMHO it can't. The machine might flex to the right, something might get bent, but you can't bow the case head.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:57 pm 
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Doesn't the collet have a shelf that holds the case by the edge while the decap pin goes through? The lifter doesn't offer much support on the down stroke but does the lifting after de prime.

Bobcat


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:03 pm 
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Bobcat Welding wrote:
Doesn't the collet have a shelf that holds the case by the edge while the decap pin goes through? The lifter doesn't offer much support on the down stroke but does the lifting after de prime.

Bobcat


The shell lifter "head" bottoms out and rests in the bottom of the collet, fully supported by it.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:23 pm 
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YevetS wrote:
Bobcat Welding wrote:
Looks like the after market filled the gap. https://creativereloadingsolutions.com/ ... -12-gauge/


So they have, but in a situation such as this you have to assume the OP is running a "stock" machine unless they tell you up front of a modified press.

Bobcat Welding wrote:
The de caping pin has a shoulder on it ,if improperly adjusted it can bottom out and slightly bow the case head so slightly you can barely notice it and that will do what you are describing.


Now, please explain how this is possible. As I see it, you have a hull supported/resting on a solid surface, the shell lifter, being de-capped by a solid fixed pin. How is the case head going to bow?? IMHO it can't. The machine might flex to the right, something might get bent, but you can't bow the case head.

Steve


The hole for the spent primer/deprime punch to go through is larger (as the full primer has to go through it) and has a tapered entrance.

I have seen this happen with cheaper hulls if the deprime ram has a little slop, punch tip gets bent or isn’t quite centered. Basically the tip of the punch hits the edge of the primer instead of the center and impacts the base of the hull at the same time.

Kent/Cheddite hulls have been the most common ones where I have seen it happen on. It dishes out the case head around the primer pocket. This typically gets pushed back flat for me when priming the hull.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:00 pm 
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southdakbearfan wrote:
The hole for the spent primer/deprime punch to go through is larger (as the full primer has to go through it) and has a tapered entrance.


A primer is .310 across, the flared end of the tube is .390 and the tube ID is .340. so the primer has .080 clearance at the mouth of the tube.(.390 - .310) A 1/16" is .0625 which means that a primer has a little more then 1/32" per side clearance to go down the tube.
It is next to impossible to dish a hull in a MEC machine.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reloads scrape breech face
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:31 pm 
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YevetS wrote:
southdakbearfan wrote:
The hole for the spent primer/deprime punch to go through is larger (as the full primer has to go through it) and has a tapered entrance.


A primer is .310 across, the flared end of the tube is .390 and the tube ID is .340. so the primer has .080 clearance at the mouth of the tube.(.390 - .310) A 1/16" is .0625 which means that a primer has a little more then 1/32" per side clearance to go down the tube.
It is next to impossible to dish a hull in a MEC machine.

Steve


Seen it multiple times. All on mecs.




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