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 Post subject: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:56 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:06 pm
Posts: 16
Looking for opinions on whether to buy one or the other or both of the following manuals for loading Bismuth shot.

Precision Reloading Bismuth Reloading Manual
or
Tom Roster's Advanced Lead and Bismuth Shot Handloading manual.
Also if there are other manuals out there I'd be interested in hearing about those as well.




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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
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Rosters is kinda out-dated but it still puts you on the right path to reloading , with Buffer !
Precision's manual is probably the latest recipes so is Lyman's 5 th ! Bismuth is very forgiving
as a component with several powders that work well but make no mistake about it , it still takes
pattern density to make it "Really" good !


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:38 pm
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Location: San Jose, CA
Hodgdon has quite a few for 12g.

I'll get reamed I'm sure, but if you look at Hodgdon's data, I feel you're safe with lead data providing you use an equal VOLUME of bismuth shot.

Ballistic Products recipes are going to be quite restrictive to their product lines (hulls and wads).

I'm using 30g of Longshot, 1-1/4 of #4, WWAA12R in Gun Club hulls.

Oh...And my Large Munsterlander (Jager) is starting to show his age. He'll be 13 in May. Don't know that he'll be up to wild birds next Fall. Still moves pretty good, but lacks the strength and stamina of days gone by. We hunted pretty hard for wild birds last year and it was showing.
Had him out for club birds last weekend. Even that took some recovery.

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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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I can't tell you the best data but I have mostly used data in Lyman's 5 th edition, Hodgdon's on line manual & precision's manuals. I buffer all my bismuth loads. All my bismuth shooting seems to crowd the limits of bismuth's unbuffered effective range.


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:18 am
Posts: 67
Jager1 wrote:

I'll get reamed I'm sure, but if you look at Hodgdon's data, I feel you're safe with lead data providing you use an equal VOLUME of bismuth shot.


I don't know why you would?
At it's basic level, it's all still a force equation until the load leaves the barrel. "F=MA".
Decreasing the "M" variable will drop the pressure and increase the "A" variable, as long as friction coefficients, and barrel length remain constant.
Velocity, "V", is a simply a function of "A" at any given point.
Substituting Bismuth for Lead, by VOLUME, alters the equation in a conservative direction. It's the opposite you would not want to do.
Patterning dynamics will change though. Adding buffers would have an effect on pattern, and normalize the "M" variable in the equation, when compared to lead.

For the OP
I just got 20 lbs. of #5 bismuth yesterday, as well a Tom Rosters booklet. It seems like a nice source of info. I have the Lyman 5th edition book as well.
Aliant and Hodgon have nice tables in the their online literature also.
Most of what I have found is focused on longer range pattern dynamics for waterfowl. I'm looking for upland bird load data.
I'll probably be doing a lot of testing this spring, but my base assumptions are consistent with Jager1, which is where I'll start.


Last edited by VizslaHunter on Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:18 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 3808
Location: UK, England, Britain
Jager1 wrote:
Hodgdon has quite a few for 12g.

I'll get reamed I'm sure, but if you look at Hodgdon's data, I feel you're safe with lead data providing you use an equal VOLUME of bismuth shot.

Ballistic Products recipes are going to be quite restrictive to their product lines (hulls and wads).

I'm using 30g of Longshot, 1-1/4 of #4, WWAA12R in Gun Club hulls.

Oh...And my Large Munsterlander (Jager) is starting to show his age. He'll be 13 in May. Don't know that he'll be up to wild birds next Fall. Still moves pretty good, but lacks the strength and stamina of days gone by. We hunted pretty hard for wild birds last year and it was showing.
Had him out for club birds last weekend. Even that took some recovery.


You are in very good company, i did this exact thing with all the nontoxic shot. I had to create my own lead shot data that i could abuse because i wanted to use a nontox wad that can take all types of nontox shot, such as sinter, steel, alloy, metal, copper bismuth, niceshot, tungsten and lead.

i pressure tested with all shots, cost a fortune.

the upshot of it is, as long as you dont exceed the weight of the original loads, then the pressures will be as high or lower. more the latter. that means volume reloading.

i`ve published it here. this was also due to our demand here for nontoxic plastic free shotgun loads. namely bismuth and fibre wadded.

i have replaced the lead shot in the reloader with bismuth, niceshot, steel, and used the same 114 bar or 1,1/4oz lead shot bar. to drop...
25grams steel shot
28grams (thats 1oz) pure copper shot
29grams itx10
32grams niceshot
32grams bismuth shot
36grams (1,1/4oz lead or thereabouts)
and some t12 tungsten....

the tungsten failed by a hairs breath. this is all european standards.
this was with the same wad, powder / powder charge, primer and case / hull.

i can safely say i can probable shoot any nontoxic payload up to 36g with my setup and push out shells faster than i can shoot them.
my loads plateau at about 36g / 1,1/4 oz and that was the maximum the powder was designed for.
this also makes me wonder about duplexing "any tungsten" / "steel shot" blend. upto a maximum 36g payload

nb if you were to compare bismuth to lead, bismuth is 0.88x the density of lead.
so if i take a 36g lead cartridge, and was to fill it with bismuth, it would be 36g x 0.88 = 32grams of bismuth shot. (just a touch quicker than published.)

i`m going to do the same assay again, at some point, with some classics. 37g bismuth / 42g lead... fibre.

# over and out


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:40 am 
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I have developed Bismuth loads in 10 gauge down through .410.

IN THE 12 GAUGE, for the most part if you drop 1/8 oz. less of Bismuth then you would lead shot, the outcome will be close in chamber pressure and velocity to a decent unbuffered lead load. That is a rule of thumb, but I am suggesting you use good data.

Using 1 shot size larger than lead in an unbuffered Bismuth load is OK.

Using one shot size larger than lead in a buffered Bismuth load, for most hunting situations, makes Bismuth shine.

IMHO, buffered Bismuth loads are the way to go and to really get the most out of Bismuth. The extra effort to buffer Bismuth is well worth the time spent.

It's your choice.

As with lead, consistently the best choice for buffer with Bismuth is Precision Reloading's PSB.

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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:33 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:16 am
Posts: 53
Location: Ontario, Canada
DogChaser,

Thanks for the above information. Can you elaborate a bit more on the buffered loads?
I know adding buffer will cause pressures to increase. Did you find that the 1/8 ounce drop from lead (a non buffered lead load) to Bismuth would also allow the use of buffer in the Bismuth load, or were your buffered Bismuth loads an 1/8 ounce drop from a buffered lead load? Hope that makes sense..

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:08 pm 
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You cannot add buffer arbitrarily, PSB raises pressures, sometimes close to 3,000 PSI.

Normally swapping 1 1/4 oz. lead for 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth will raise the pressure a bit. So......adding buffer will probably put you well over the SAAMI MAP. Typically a powder change will be necessary.

Precision Reloading and Roster should have buffered Bismuth loads in their manuals.

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Mark

aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:17 pm 
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Here is a nice 12 gauge 2 3/4" buffered Bismuth load.

Federal Gold Medal hull
Winchester 209 primer
30.0 grains Blue Dot
Remington RP-12 wad
1 1/4 oz. Bismuth #5's
24.0 Grains of PSB Buffer

FPS 1210 PSI 9,700

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aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:38 pm
Posts: 2619
Location: San Jose, CA
VizslaHunter wrote:
Jager1 wrote:

I'll get reamed I'm sure, but if you look at Hodgdon's data, I feel you're safe with lead data providing you use an equal VOLUME of bismuth shot.


I don't know why you would?
At it's basic level, it's all still a force equation until the load leaves the barrel. "F=MA".
Decreasing the "M" variable will drop the pressure and increase the "A" variable, as long as friction coefficients, and barrel length remain constant.
Velocity, "V", is a simply a function of "A" at any given point.
Substituting Bismuth for Lead, by VOLUME, alters the equation in a conservative direction. It's the opposite you would not want to do.
Patterning dynamics will change though. Adding buffers would have an effect on pattern, and normalize the "M" variable in the equation, when compared to lead.

.


While I agree that I shouldn't, it's happened before. Sir Randy and some other yahoo was most animus. Inventing statements to support their circular logic. They can't do math, don't understand VOLUME/density and try to measure hardness in Pascals (a pressure measurement).

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... 2#p4165412

One can pull up the Hodgdon loads for both lead and bismuth and see for themselves.

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http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=448601


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:18 am
Posts: 67
Jager1

At the end of the day, it's just math.


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 3808
Location: UK, England, Britain
dogchaser37 wrote:
You cannot add buffer arbitrarily, PSB raises pressures, sometimes close to 3,000 PSI.

Normally swapping 1 1/4 oz. lead for 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth will raise the pressure a bit. So......adding buffer will probably put you well over the SAAMI MAP. Typically a powder change will be necessary.

Precision Reloading and Roster should have buffered Bismuth loads in their manuals.


In my experience when i replaced a 1,1/4oz lead load with 1,1/8oz bismuth pressures went lower. I got almost the exact pressures with the same 1,1/8oz niceshot. Give or take a wiggle of variation. The powder i was using was run pretty hard. Very hard.


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:13 pm 
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cookoff013,

I have seen the pressure drop with some 12 gauge unbuffered bismuth loads and increase with others......being real honest about it, with the 12 & 16 gauge loads I have never seen it to be much in either direction.

The only reason I am not mentioning 10, 20, 28 and .410 is because I really can't remember what happened with them. Too many years ago, and not enough interest on my part, I suppose.

With the 12 & 16 I remember taking lead loading data, dropping the weight of Bismuth by 1/8 oz. and shooting it. Very seldom did I have to adjust much if anything.

The 12 I remember because that gauge is always the bulk of the load development. And the 16 because I love the gauge.

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aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:44 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 3808
Location: UK, England, Britain
DC

we are cool. i havent tinkered with buffered load. not worth a hoot anyway. as most loads now are supposed to be environmental, most shouldnt have any plastic. most comercial buffers are some sort of granular plastic.
those itallians use very fine cork, and have been doing it for years. which is acceptable.
i guess bio ammo is in now.

as for loads and development, my criterias are quite strict. takes ages to source components and rubbish for quite simple reloads really. but the tests come out as expected.
my economy took a hit this year, and i think it will take a year or two to get settled and doing good test again. never tinkered with buffer, might give it a spin.


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:30 am 
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cookoff013,

The first Bismuth shot was brittle and would fracture upon firing, so a lot of the first loads were buffered, which for all intents and purposes, stopped the fracturing.

Then Bismuth shot had some in added to stop the fracturing, which it did. However the buffering still helps to get nice patterns.

My regular Bismuth hunting load is buffered #5's.

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aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Even plastic is biodegradable. It just takes longer & people like it because it is cheaper & more convenient. It is not necessary. Hulls & wads were all paper or fiber when I started reloading so going back to fiber is no big deal but the younger generations have never known life without a cell phone or plastic. We used such things as corn meal & flower for buffer & shot protectors made of various materials. High quality components still shine in the field as they always have. BTW, anybody have a load for buffered bismuth in a 3" 20 ga., Win. CF hull? Any amount of shot (1 to 1.25 oz.) that uses powder that is still in production! I haven't shot a 3" 20 ga. shell in about 30 yrs. & then it was only a few but bismuth in the 3" 20 looks attractive for certain applications.


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:03 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:06 pm
Posts: 16
First, thanks to Ravenanme, Jager1, geometric, VizslaHunter, dogchaser37, cookoff013 for all the responses and discussion. I have perused many a powder company site for loads but I still like printed materials, easier to make notes in the margins and scan quickly across the recipes for random components. That and I spend to much time on a computer at the office!

Regarding the discussion of payloads, when I started loading steel I purchased the RSI Steel handbook, which clearly spelled out the principle that in shotshell loading you can reduce shot payload safely and gain a little more velocity in the process, as stated above its just physics. It makes sense that the concept would transfer to Bismuth loading.


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:23 pm
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13.0 grains Longshot in 28 ga #6 Bismuth deadly on ducks inside 40 yds. DEADLY


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 Post subject: Re: opinions on bismuth reloading manuals
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
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Location: UK, England, Britain
i quite like that itx 10.
funny stuff it is.
but great in volumetric application.




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