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 Post subject: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:50 pm 
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Putting your shot weights on a diet has benefits beyond saving lead in these days of rocketing prices.

This PDF article (747 kb) from Clay Shooting Magazine explores how lighter shot loads contribute to better patterns through less shot deformation.

The download's quick and it's highly recommended reading:

http://www.clayshootingusa.com/readers/ ... tastic.pdf

Everything the author says makes sense, but I'd draw the line at regressing to the use of fiber wads. However, that's just mentioned and is not the main thrust of the article.

I take the light shot weight program even farther than he does:

12 gauge -- 3/4 oz.
20 gauge -- 11/16 oz.
28 gauge -- 5/8 oz.
.410 bore -- Here's where the program comes to a screeching halt. I cram every pellet possible into that thing.



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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:59 pm 
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Case, Thanks for the link--interesting article. You are certainly right about the 410. I've been loading and patterning for a couple months, looking for the optimum small game load. I had read before about setback and the damage to shot at the bottom of the column; therefore, I thought I was onto something with the BP "Stretch" wad. It has a small cushion section and is very thick-walled. All this comes at the cost of the payload and the results, so far, have proved unfavorable. Here's an example of two loads I've tried.
Cheddite 3-inch/16grs H110/Stretch 36/233grs #7 magnum shot
Hits in 25-inch circle--156, in 8-inch core--32
Remington 3-inch/Win209/17grs H110/R4103/295grs #7 mag
Hits in 25-inch circle--184, in 8-inch core--49

It seems to me that less is not better in the 410.

BTW, all patterns at 25 yards and the average of ten-shot strings.


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:22 am 
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Case, I think I'm going to give it a try on the reduced loads.. Many thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:36 am 
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Thanks to Case for the interesting read. Image

Refering to shot deformation,

Tim Woodhouse wrote:
With smaller shot sizes this problem becomes more acute and although for closer targets such as skeet this can be an advantage, it is not to be recommended for long sporting clays shots.

Seems to underscore what I learned while shooting some pretty crappy reclaimed shot through my fixed choke (skeet) 1100 during an almost 2-year, economically forced "experiment" in the early 80's. The scores and average took a very significant, almost instantaneous, and totally unexpected leap forward, going from .9744 to .9908 (12 ga.) in a single year. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:47 am 
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Updated 2-11-07

These are my current light Skeet Loads -- except for .410, which uses the heaviest NSSA-legal shot weight. If you use any of them, don't deviate from the recipe. Deviations will produce unpredictable results.

The light loads for the gauges perform as well on targets as heavier loads.

These light loads require NO filler and a MEC press can be easily adjusted for all of them by taking these steps:

1. Lower the crimp starter so the opening left is slightly less than normal.

2. Raise the crimp punch so it does virtually nothing, then lower it gradually until you get a crimp with about a 3/16" rim and no hole in the center.

3. Adjust the cam to close any remaining center hole.

Your crimps should look like these:

Image


12 GAUGE PROMO LITE
HULL: AA-HS or any Remington (No Federals -- too much internal volume.)
SHOT WEIGHT: 3/4 oz.
SHOT SIZE: No. 8, 8-1/2 or 9 (Actual average dropped, 315 gr.) (Larger shot will reduce pellet count and performance severely.)
POWDER: 16.9 gr. Alliant Promo
MEC POWDER BUSHING: No. 29
PRIMER: Fiocchi 616 (209), W209, STS209, Nobel Sport or PMC.
WAD: Claybuster CB0178-12 (Clone of the pricier gray WAA12L and the best wad for this shot weight)
~
Average Velocity: 1204
High Velocity: 1221
Low Velocity: 1180
Extreme Spread: 41
Standard Deviation: 16
Pressure: Less than the published 7,900 psi for 7/8 oz. of shot and 16.5 gr. of Red Dot, the equivalent more expensive version of Promo.
NOTE: This load will not cycle semiautos.


<center>~~~</center>
20 GAUGE PROMO LITE

This is the most recent version of an unpublished light 20 gauge Promo recipe cooked up by some of us here on SGW. It's been revised to reflect more recent data and some necessary warnings. I've hunted down and updated a number of them, but earlier versions of this recipe may remain elsewhere on this board.

This is the only recipe to use. The various warnings must be observed and the lower shot and powder charges should be seriously considered.

The recipe includes the alternative powders Unique and Universal, either of which will produce an equally excellent load.

The only reason for the Promo version of this recipe is to have the ability to use a single powder for both 12 and 20 gauge.

As stated, this is an unpublished wildcat recipe and you're on your own on this one. If you have even the slightest reservations about the Promo version -- THEN DON'T USE IT.

Just use either Unique or Universal.

IMPORTANT: While it isn't a bad idea to reweigh bushing drops from new lots of any powder, it's absolutely necessary when using Promo, which is known to vary from lot to lot. Promo has the same burn rate as Red Dot and can be substituted grain for grain, but the two powders meter differenly through a bushing.

HULL: AA-HS or any Remington
SHOT WEIGHT: 11/16 (best) or 3/4 oz. (maximum) (Actual averages dropped by stock MEC charge bars: 11/16 oz. - 300 gr.; 3/4 oz. - 315 gr.)
SHOT SIZE: No. 8-1/2 or 9 (Larger shot will reduce pellet count and performance severely.)
POWDER: 12.4 gr. Alliant Promo -- ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM! (or 15.3 gr. Unique (No. 24 bushing) or Universal. You'd have to determine which MEC bushing drops that for Universal.)
MEC POWDER BUSHING FOR PROMO: No. 21
PRIMER: Fiocchi 616 (209), W209, STS209, Nobel Sport or PMC. (DO NOT USE the hotter Fed209A or Rio.)
WAD: Current "new" WAA20 (The older WAA20 wad and others are too short to crimp well and so far no clones are available for the newer WAA20.)

Average Velocity: 1209 fps.
Pressure: About 11,500 psi average for 3/4 oz. payload using Promo and W209 primer (Tested). Less than 11,000 psi using Unique.

NOTES: This load burns cleaner than any I've ever used in any shotgun, no matter what gauge/bore. It may or may not cycle semiautos.

WARNING: USING PROMO, DO NOT EXCEED THE LISTED POWDER CHARGE OR 3/4 OZ. OF SHOT IN THIS LOAD. Heavier payloads with this fast powder could raise pressures excessively. The 11/16 oz. payload is very effective, will produce lower pressure and is highly recommended. Use of 11.6 gr. of Promo from a MEC No. 20 bushing will also produce excellent results with lower pressure and negligibly lower velocity -- average 1156 fps. Just bear in mind that this is a wildcat recipe offering little latitude in components.

If you adhere to the recipe and observe those few caveats, you'll have a safe, clean-burning, ballistically efficient load that allows you to use the excellent, low-cost Promo for both 12 and 20 gauge.

If this recipe is to be shot in tubes, I highly recommend using the lower powder charge of 11.6 gr. from a MEC No. 20 bushing.

That, and 11/16 oz. of shot, is what I use.

By "tubes" I'm not talking about chokes or even necessarily the various gauge-reducing inserts, but rather full-length subgauge tubes such as Brileys or Kolars, the metal thickness of whose 20 gauge chambers is exceptionally thin.


<center>~~~</center>
28 GAUGE UNIQUE LITE
HULL: AA-HS
SHOT WEIGHT: 5/8 oz.
SHOT SIZE: No. 8-1/2 or 9 (Actual average dropped, 279 gr.) (Larger shot will reduce pellet count and performance severely.)
POWDER: 13 gr. Unique
MEC POWDER BUSHING: No. 20
PRIMER: Fiocchi 616 (209), W209, STS209, Nobel Sport or PMC.
WAD: Claybuster CB5034-28HS
~
Average Velocity: 1216
High Velocity: 1234
Low Velocity: 1201
Extreme Spread: 33
Standard Deviation: 13
Pressure: Less than the published 9,400 psi for 3/4 oz. of shot.
NOTES: 14 grains of Universal from a standard MEC No. 18 bushing will also produce good crimps with this load, with only a slight loss of velocity, but slightly higher pressure. Either load may or may not cycle semiautos.

Interestingly, this is something of a flashback to the 5/8 oz. load of the original 28 gauge shotshell developed in England during the late 1880s and introduced to America in 1905, which was a 2-1/2" case loaded with a 1-3/4 dram charge of blackpowder or its smokeless equivalent. Roughly by WW I, the 28 gauge case was extended to 2-7/8" with more powder and 3/4 oz. of shot. Eventually, in the 1930s, ammunition makers settled on a 2-3/4" case and 3/4 oz. of shot, which was developed specifically for Skeet shooters, who are mostly responsible for keeping the 28 gauge alive to this day. (Source: Article in the July 2006 edition of Shooting Times magazine.)


<center>~~~</center>
.410 BORE HEAVY
HULL: AA-HS
SHOT WEIGHT: Average 229 gr. (Altered MEC bar)
SHOT SIZE: No. 9 (Larger shot will reduce pellet count and performance severely.)
POWDER: 12.8 gr. WC820 (Military surplus .30 M1 Carbine powder)
MEC POWDER BUSHING: No. 10
PRIMER: Fiocchi 616 (209), W209, STS209, Nobel Sport or PMC.
WAD: Orange PC410 (formerly Pattern Control, now Downrange Mfg.)
~
Average Velocity: 1231
High Velocity: 1240
Low Velocity: 1221
Extreme Spread: 19
Standard Deviation: 7
NOTE: The Orange PC has one of the widest base diameters of any .410 wad and provides an excellent seal. It also leaves ample room in a hull and allows for excellent crimps with the beefed-up shot weight

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Last edited by Case on Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:06 pm 
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So for skeet we should shoot 1 1/8 oz of soft shot and leave out the shot cup?


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:30 pm 
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Bill M. wrote:
So for skeet we should shoot 1 1/8 oz of soft shot and leave out the shot cup?

How do you arrive at that, even facetiously?

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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:00 pm
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Bill M. wrote:
So for skeet we should shoot 1 1/8 oz of soft shot and leave out the shot cup?


????? :w


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:03 am
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Case listed a 28 gauge load that used Unique. I thought Longshot was the only powder you recommended for HS and 28 gauge. ?


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:57 pm 
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Denali Bob wrote:
Case listed a 28 gauge load that used Unique. I thought Longshot was the only powder you recommended for HS and 28 gauge. ?

Unique and Universal are good 28 gauge propellants, but too bulky to fit with 3/4 oz. of shot and most wads comfortably in a AA-HS hull and produce good crimps.

You'll notice that recipe I list there uses a 5/8 oz. shot load, which works perfectly with the bulkier Unique or Universal.

I choose Unique because it produces lower pressure and costs less than Universal.

But Longshot would work equally well with a 5/8 oz. load, just with a different powder charge, which would have to be determined.

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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:23 pm 
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I'm not so sure Longshot would work as well with reduced loads. It is a slower powder really needing full heavy charges to work well, and, it is denser requireing less room in the hull so with 5/8 oz loads I'm not so sure I'd even try it. I just don't like the odds of it's being a satisfactory load combination. But, what do I know, I advocate arbitrary swaping load components without sending them off to Armbrust for pressusre testing! At least that's how I remember the accusations! Opps, I'm getting way off topic again aren't I? :oops:

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:16 pm 
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I think longshot would work ok, but pressures would be relatively low, therefore it wouldn't burn very clean. The 16 gauge reloading group developed dozens of low pressure loads for the 16 gauge, and longshot was a pretty common ingredient due to its slow burn rate, and provided decent shot to shot consistancy, but left the barrel looking like a stovepipe! I'd go with unique.


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:21 pm 
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Yep, I agree with both of you. I tossed that last line in as an afterthought that wasn't thought out very well.

Actually, I've never tried Longshot with the 5/8 oz. load, whose actual 279 grains would be about 35 grains lighter than the actual 315 grains dropped by a stock 3/4 oz. MEC bar.

It would work, but probably leave a very messy barrel. Unique leaves a very clean barrel and seems to be ideal for the 5/8 ouncer.

The Longshot mention was just another of my phamous brain pharts and it's good you guys squelched it.

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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:58 pm 
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Case, very interesting. I had missed this when posted. A couple of excerpts:

1)When a charge of shot begins to
leave the muzzle, it is no longer
restrained laterally by the barrel
walls – with the immediately
preceding pellets still in the bore
tending to push at their rear in a
greater or lesser manner. This
effect is amplified or otherwise by
the degree of residual pressure left
in the barrel to propel the shot at
this point. This tends to cause a
battering ram effect into the rear of
the charge, which, practically,
increases the total spread of the
charge. The higher that this
residual pressure remains and the
longer the shot column, the
greater will be the spread for a
given degree of choke.

Is this why barrels are ported? Is this why lower pressure loadings are recommended for tighter patterns?

2)Lighter loads with fibre wads are
also more efficient as a direct result
of reduced lateral thrust scrubbing
the pellets down the barrel walls.

Why is there less lateral thrust with fibre wads? Would this mean that turkey loads would be better with fibre wads than with using shot cups? Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:45 pm 
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Unless i get a long more edge on target,
i shoot 85+ percent of my sporting clays targets
with 15/16oz of #8's.
I can't ever remember getting any mysterious misses
of birds that i thought should have broke but didn't,
when they don't break it's shot placement not the lighter load.


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:52 pm 
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Note that I updated those recipes with some new information.

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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:55 pm 
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That article was a good read, thanks.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone propose loading the bottom layers of shot with high-antimony, then topping it off with softer lead pellets. :idea: Might be a way to partially mitigate the deformation issue...

Aside from the additional charging step/labor, what would be the downsides to this concept?

dave horton


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 Post subject: Re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:00 am 
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DaveH1 wrote:
Aside from the additional charging step/labor, what would be the downsides to this concept?

The additional charging step/labor, which would very likely produce no improvement at all.

With the possible exception of the .410, owing to its high pressure and low pellet count, there are plenty of uncorrupted pellets in a pattern from the gauges to break any target and a few fliers would be negligible -- at least as far as I'm concerned.

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 Post subject: re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:16 am 
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ok im confused the sticky http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=73343 says to crimp to 3/16 and this thread says 3/32 thats a big difference but because i saw the sticky first i reloaded the 3/16 first and im wondering if there gonna be safe to shoot or am i gonna have to cut them all open to save the components?


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 Post subject: Re: re: Triggering the lite fantastic
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:48 pm 
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malefacter wrote:
ok im confused the sticky http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=73343 says to crimp to 3/16 and this thread says 3/32 thats a big difference but because i saw the sticky first i reloaded the 3/16 first and im wondering if there gonna be safe to shoot or am i gonna have to cut them all open to save the components?

A 3/16" crimp would be a very deep crimp, and I don't know why I wrote such foolishness.

I changed that in my press adjustment boilerplate long ago.

A 3/32" is plenty, but your 3/16" isn't going to hurt anything.

Just shoot the shells.



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