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 Post subject: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:13 pm 
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Updated 2-11-07

This is the most recent version of an unpublished light 20 gauge Promo recipe cooked up by some of us here on SGW. It's been revised to reflect more recent data and some necessary warnings. I've hunted down and updated a number of them, but earlier versions of this recipe may remain elsewhere on this board.

This is the only recipe to use. The various warnings must be observed and the lower shot and powder charges should be seriously considered.

The recipe includes the alternative powders Unique and Universal, either of which will produce an equally excellent load.

The only reason for the Promo version of this recipe is to have the ability to use a single powder for both 12 and 20 gauge.

As stated, this is an unpublished wildcat recipe and you're on your own on this one. If you have even the slightest reservations about the Promo version -- THEN DON'T USE IT.

Just use either Unique or Universal.

IMPORTANT: While it isn't a bad idea to reweigh bushing drops from new lots of any powder, it's absolutely necessary when using Promo, which is known to vary from lot to lot. Promo has the same burn rate as Red Dot and can be substituted grain for grain, but the two powders meter differenly through a bushing.

20 GAUGE PROMO LITE
HULL: AA-HS or any Remington
SHOT WEIGHT: 11/16 (best) or 3/4 oz. (maximum) (Actual averages dropped by stock MEC charge bars: 11/16 oz. - 300 gr.; 3/4 oz. - 315 gr.)
SHOT SIZE: No. 8-1/2 or 9 (Larger shot will reduce pellet count and performance severely.)
POWDER: 12.4 gr. Alliant Promo -- ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM! (or 15.3 gr. Unique (No. 24 bushing) or Universal. You'd have to determine which MEC bushing drops that for Universal.)
MEC POWDER BUSHING FOR PROMO: No. 21
PRIMER: Fiocchi 616 (209), W209, STS209, Nobel Sport or PMC. (DO NOT USE the hotter Fed209A or Rio.)
WAD: Current "new" WAA20 (The older WAA20 wad and others are too short to crimp well and so far no clones are available for the newer WAA20.)

Average Velocity: 1209 fps.
Pressure: About 11,500 psi average for 3/4 oz. payload using Promo and W209 primer (Tested). Less than 11,000 psi using Unique.

NOTES: This load burns cleaner than any I've ever used in any shotgun, no matter what gauge/bore. It may or may not cycle semiautos.

WARNING: USING PROMO, DO NOT EXCEED THE LISTED POWDER CHARGE OR 3/4 OZ. OF SHOT IN THIS LOAD. Heavier payloads with this fast powder could raise pressures excessively. The 11/16 oz. payload is very effective, will produce lower pressure and is highly recommended. Use of 11.6 gr. of Promo from a MEC No. 20 bushing will also produce excellent results with lower pressure and negligibly lower velocity -- average 1156 fps. Just bear in mind that this is a wildcat recipe offering little latitude in components.

If you adhere to the recipe and observe those few caveats, you'll have a safe, clean-burning, ballistically efficient load that allows you to use the excellent, low-cost Promo for both 12 and 20 gauge.

If this recipe is to be shot in tubes, I highly recommend using the lower powder charge of 11.6 gr. from a MEC No. 20 bushing.

That, and 11/16 oz. of shot, is what I use.

By "tubes" I'm not talking about chokes or even necessarily the various gauge-reducing inserts, but rather full-length subgauge tubes such as Brileys or Kolars, the metal thickness of whose 20 gauge chambers is exceptionally thin.



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Last edited by Case on Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:07 am 
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Why the change?


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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:13 am 
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Em Are Skeet wrote:
Why the change?

The average pressure of the maximum load is 11,500 psi -- still below the 12,000 psi SAAMI maximum but not the 9,500 psi as someone who originally had the load tested reported.

And since it's a wildcat load using a very fast powder, I also thought the recipe needed more visibly pointed and specific cautions.

The concern is mainly directed at people who might use the load in tubes, the chambers of which in the 20 gauge are unusually thin and vulnerable to cracking.

With the warnings and cautions in mind, it's purely, simply and entirely up to the individual to determine if he wants to use the load.

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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:02 am 
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Did someone else have the load retested and found it to be that much higher?


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 Post subject: Re: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:41 am 
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SShooterZ wrote:
Did someone else have the load retested and found it to be that much higher?

Obviously. Otherwise, where would the new data come from?

Ten AA-HS shells loaded with W209 primers, WAA20 wads, 3/4 oz. of shot and the highest powder charge from a set of 15 drops -- in other words, a maximum-load scenario -- were tested in a commercial ballistics lab using industrial-grade equipment.

I had it tested under an agreement that the lab, for obvious liability reasons, would not be named, and it won't be. So don't ask.

Considering the components involved, I never trusted the original 9,500 psi figure. The new figure, as I suspected it would be, is much more in line with pressures of published recipes of more conventional loads.

The maximum load listed above would be perfectly safe in any dedicated 20 gauge shotgun. In fact, I've shot thousands of those in a Winchester Model 12.

But because it's a maximum load, I'd not shoot it in tubes any more readily than I'd shoot any published maximum 20 gauge load in tubes -- which is not at all.

I use the 11.6 gr. of Promo and 11/16 oz. of shot version in tubes. Pressure from that load, though not tested, would obviously be considerably lower than that of the maximum load.

This whole thing is really no big deal, but merely a revised recipe noting pressure more nearly in line with those of published recipes, which the original pressure listed in the recipe for that load definitely was not.

Nothing in the recipe itself has changed.

And as I said before, I thought the various warnings and cautions should be more highly emphasized -- especially for those who might use the load in tubes.

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 Post subject: Re: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:34 pm 
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Case wrote:
Obviously. Otherwise, where would the new data come from?


Easy Case... Just asking a question.

Case wrote:
Ten AA-HS shells loaded with W209 primers, WAA20 wads, 3/4 oz. of shot and the highest powder charge from a set of 15 drops -- in other words, a maximum-load scenario -- were tested in a commercial ballistics lab using industrial-grade equipment.

I had it tested under an agreement that the lab, for obvious liability reasons, would not be named, and it won't be. So don't ask.


Again, relax... What's wrong, the holidays got you stressed out a little?

Case wrote:
Considering the components involved, I never trusted the original 9,500 psi figure. The new figure, as I suspected it would be, is much more in line with pressures of published recipes of more conventional loads.


I guess it makes sense considering the pressure provided and how clean you said it burned that something didn't add up. Thanks for having it retested.

Merry Christmas! ;)


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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:05 pm 
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Sorry about the apparent snarkiness, Bob. I really didn't mean it to be.

And yeah, holidays always stress me out. They constitute brief periods of insanity among the populace, with which I occasionally have to cope.

I usually don't leave the house until they're well past.
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Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:08 am 
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Ah, no worries. Hope you and yours have a Happy Holidays...

Here's to 2007's newest reloading adventures. :B3 {P^


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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:50 pm 
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I have been shooting this load for a while now, well sort of my P/W is dropping 12.1 grains. With the new test results, I am less comfortable with it. I do like the economy of it however, and going to unique would cost more (more $/pound and more grains/load). So it got me to thinking about rex powders which can be had for a decent price. Rex 1 would be like the promo, so rex 2 seems like it could be a good choice to make this a slightly safer load but still keep some of its economy.

Am I wrong? Any thoughts?

Thanks to Case for the new info.


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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:06 pm 
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Rex II is might just be the ticket for light loads in 20 ga, it is a lot like Green Dot in application.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:42 pm 
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Il-Greenhead wrote:
I have been shooting this load for a while now, well sort of my P/W is dropping 12.1 grains.

Am I wrong? Any thoughts?

The 11,500 psi pressure is nothing unusual for 20 gauge loads. The load guides list many recipes at that or even higher pressures.

The 11.6 gr. version with 11/16 oz. of No. 8-1/2 or 9 shot will easily break any Skeet target on the field and its pressure would be well below the 12,000 psi SAAMI maximum for 20 gauge.

It's an excellent, economical load and I have no compunctions whatsoever about shooting it in tubes.

Don't know anything about Rex powders, since I've never used them.

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 Post subject: Re: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:47 pm 
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SShooterZ wrote:
Did someone else have the load retested and found it to be that much higher?


I submitted a similar 3/4 oz. load last March, but specified STS/gun club cases, STS primers, and 12.2 gr. Promo. Ave. pressure was under 9000 psi IIRC. Not unheard of to have as much as a 3000 psi difference just by switching primers, not to mention Winchester cases are slightly different internally. There's other variables too, such as ambient temp., condition of the hull, crimp depth, etc.
It'd be interesting to see what pressures the lab Case used, would get from this load.
I was also under the impression that Rio primers were quite hot, ie similar to the Fed. 209A, and therefore, probably not well suited for this load. Anyone care to comment?


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 Post subject: Re: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:46 pm 
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pumpgun wrote:
I submitted a similar 3/4 oz. load last March, but specified STS/gun club cases, STS primers, and 12.2 gr. Promo. Ave. pressure was under 9000 psi...

Maybe you did and I just missed it, but I don't recall your listing the specific recipe you had tested.

What you list there very well could come out with considerably lower pressure: STS primers are milder than the W209, your recipe is .2 of a grain lighter on powder and the STS hull has a slightly larger volume than the AA-HS.

The shot and powder were both hand-measured in the recipe above and I deliberately set out to create a "worst-case" scenario, which is what I see that being.

Let's not forget that four 20 gauge recipes using Red Dot are still published in the 4th Edition of Lyman's Shotshell Handbook -- but for use in Federal hulls only, obviously because of their much larger case volume.

Lyman's has this one footnoted as the most stable:

Federal paper or plastic target hull | 13 gr. Red Dot | Fed209A | WAA20 wad | Velocity: 1169 fps | Pressure: 10,600 LUP


The other recipes list powder charges as high as 14 grains.

The recipe listed at the beginning of this topic would be safe for use in any dedicated 20 gauge shotgun.

I use the lighter version of it in tubes for the same reason I'd use the lighter version of any recipe in 20 gauge tubes with their thin chamber metals.

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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:19 am 
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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:52 am 
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Pumpgun's data, showing considerably lower pressure with the Remington hull and STS primer:

Rem. 20g Gun Club hull
STS 209 primer
12.2 gr. Alliant Promo
OEM WAA20 wad
¾ oz. #9 shot

30" test barrel, cyl choke, .616 bore
5 shots, 41 Deg. F

FPS:
1197
1188
1179
1180
1181

PSI:
9200
8800
7900
8800
8700

Ave. PSI: 8680

That's an extreme spread of 18 and standard deviation of 6.8 -- very impressive.

I wonder if that 41 deg. temperature accounted any for those low pressures.

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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:10 pm 
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FWIW this load clocked 1150 out of a 26 inch model 12.


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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:19 pm 
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I know you do not like the cheddite primer, but do you think there is any problem swapping the W209 with the cheddite?
Thanks,






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 Post subject: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:20 pm 
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Is this still the definitive light 20 ga. recipe? I was researching 20 ga. reloading last summer, but haven't been able to do much except save my hulls (easily a couple thousand hulls now). Now I'm about to drop the hammer on a 9000GN and get started, and I just want to make sure this is the last revision of this recipe.

Also, how bad is this recipe with 7.5 or 8 shot? I'm first and foremost a hunter and bird dog trainer, so when I'm reloading I want to be able to use these shot sizes due to the high possibility that these shells will be bringing down plenty of quail and maybe a pheasant or two. I can skip the 6's if necessary, but I'd really like to have the 7.5's and 8's.

Thanks for all the info Case & pumpgun!

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 Post subject: Re: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:19 am 
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Ayres01 wrote:
Is this still the definitive light 20 ga. recipe? I was researching 20 ga. reloading last summer, but haven't been able to do much except save my hulls (easily a couple thousand hulls now). Now I'm about to drop the hammer on a 9000GN and get started, and I just want to make sure this is the last revision of this recipe.

Also, how bad is this recipe with 7.5 or 8 shot? I'm first and foremost a hunter and bird dog trainer, so when I'm reloading I want to be able to use these shot sizes due to the high possibility that these shells will be bringing down plenty of quail and maybe a pheasant or two. I can skip the 6's if necessary, but I'd really like to have the 7.5's and 8's.

Thanks for all the info Case & pumpgun!


Ayres01,

This is my light 20ga recipe:

20ga
(Rem Gameload, Rem Sportload, Premier, WinAAHS hulls all work well)
W209 (Now using PMC Optima 209s)
15gr Unique
MEC #23 (for me on a 600Jr)
WAA20 (The newest one)
3/4 any shot size 7.5, 8, 8.5, 9

This will not cycle an 1100, or at least the one I shot them in.
Super soft shooting

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 Post subject: Re: re: UPDATED 20 ga. Promo Lite recipe/warnings. READ IT!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:50 pm 
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Ayres01 wrote:
Is this still the definitive light 20 ga. recipe? I was researching 20 ga. reloading last summer, but haven't been able to do much except save my hulls (easily a couple thousand hulls now). Now I'm about to drop the hammer on a 9000GN and get started, and I just want to make sure this is the last revision of this recipe.

Yeah, this one's it.

Quote:
Also, how bad is this recipe with 7.5 or 8 shot? I'm first and foremost a hunter and bird dog trainer, so when I'm reloading I want to be able to use these shot sizes due to the high possibility that these shells will be bringing down plenty of quail and maybe a pheasant or two. I can skip the 6's if necessary, but I'd really like to have the 7.5's and 8's.

This table (an image you can save) should give you a pretty good idea on pellet count trade-offs with larger shot:
<center>
Image
</center>
It doesn't include No. 6, but you won't get significantly less pellets with that than No. 7-1/2.

I'd go for 6's on pheasant and 8's on quail.

I've slaughtered quail with No. 9 shot from a .410, but I've never used dogs, mostly just letting them flush then walking up the singles.



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