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 Post subject: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:44 pm 
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I did a search, and amazingly this topic didn't come up in sub gauge.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "28 gauge: patterns like a 20 ga, recoils like a .410"


So for you guys that actually shoot small frame 20 and 28 gauge O/U's of like weight, is there really a marked recoil difference? Can you quantify it?

The cost barrier to entry for 28 ga is significant, so I am wondering if it is worth it.

BTW, type shooting, skeet, reloads, 11/16th oz 20 ga and 5/8th oz 28 ga, both 1200 fps, or factory 7/8th oz vs 3/4, 1200 fps. How can 1/16th of an ounce of shot at the same velocity make much perceivable difference?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:56 pm 
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I shoot many gauges, while I do not own a 28ga yet, I have shot several.
If you are worried about recoil and are shooting 20ga - 28ga or .410, you are in the wrong sport.

The loads you listed for the 20ga would be on the mild side. I don't think you would notice much difference, but don't let that stop you from buying a 28ga. Wonderful little gauge.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:38 pm 
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If you shoot the normal shot weight for each gauge, in guns that weigh the same, the actual recoil of the 28 gauge will be less. Now, the FELT recoil may be the opposite due to stock dimensions and gun fit. In any case, the difference in recoil will be negligible.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:53 am 
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Yes, but it is due to the shotcharges that we normally use not the guage itself. I have tried the 1oz 28 guage load and it bites back in a light 28 guage gun. I have been shooting a lot of 3/4 oz 20 gauge lately and it is every bit as pleasant as a 28 but has the advantages of hulls being cheaper to obtain.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 6:02 am 
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nody wrote:
So for you guys that actually shoot small frame 20 and 28 gauge O/U's of like weight, is there really a marked recoil difference? Can you quantify it?

The cost barrier to entry for 28 ga is significant, so I am wondering if it is worth it.

BTW, type shooting, skeet, reloads, 11/16th oz 20 ga and 5/8th oz 28 ga, both 1200 fps, or factory 7/8th oz vs 3/4, 1200 fps. How can 1/16th of an ounce of shot at the same velocity make much perceivable difference?

Thanks


Sure you can run the numbers to tell the difference in a 1/16 of an oz, but practically, no you won't feel much difference. If recoil and cost are your only concerns, I would stay with 20 gauge. If you've been shooting 11/16 oz 20s, you are already shooting a great low recoil load. If you still want to reduce recoil, add weight to your gun or put on a better recoil pad.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 6:42 am 
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nody wrote:

So for you guys that actually shoot small frame 20 and 28 gauge O/U's of like weight, is there really a marked recoil difference? Can you quantify it?


The hole diameter in the barrel has nothing to with recoil.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:58 am 
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Claysmoker, Mustangdriver, and benniesdad,

Thanks for your thoughtful answers.

As for the rest of you, I thought this was a forum to discuss the differences, details, benefits, and shortcomings of sub gauges. I guess it should be renamed "sub personalities". :(

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:46 am 
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i shoot a 28ga english stock gun that weighs about 6lbs. kicks like a pissed off mule with winchester aa skeet loads. i shoot a 11-87 with aa trap loads with hardly any recoil. in my opinion gun weight, style and shape will determine recoil more than gauge will. i'm sure a 28 ga 1100 skeet gun would have almost no recoil. just as a side bar, at dick's last night 20 & 12 ga Win AA's were $7.88 with a $2 rebate. 28ga were $12.88. so if you are trying to decide between 20 vs 28ga and want to shoot a lot consider shell cost. 28ga and ecconomical can never be used in the same sentence.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Over the years I have shot many different 28 gauge shotguns from heavy to very light weight.Have fired most every weight load available from the 28 gauge from the 2 1/2 inch shell to the 1 ounce 2 3/4 inch load.For myself and any of the 28 gauge shotguns I have fired with these loads I have never noticed any great amount of recoil.All were nice to shoot .

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Actual recoil is the result of three different things - weight of ejecta (shot, cup and powder), velocity, and the weight of the gun. When you think about it, shooting a 28 ga. can actually result in more actual recoil than a 20 ga. As you pointed out, the shot charge is very close in weight, the same velocity, and true 28 ga frame guns are usually lighter than 20 ga guns.

There are ways to reduce felt recoil, though. A good recoil pad and making sure the gun fits you correctly are good places to start.

28 ga: Patterns like a 20, recoils like a .410.

Obviously, that just isn't possible; you can't have ejecta and velocity without the recoil. The laws of Physics say so.

If you're thinking of target shooting, a 28 ga gun built on a 20 ga receiver will reduce recoil w/out much of a dropoff of performance. If you talking about hunting, then you can carry a lighter gun on a smaller receiver, get performance similar to the 20 ga. You'll appreciate the lighter gun, and you won't notice the recoil.


Is it worth it? Only you can decide. You can see by the link in my sig that I like the 28 ga a lot, in heavy guns for target shooting, and in light guns for hunting.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 1:31 am 
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My exeperience matches what BPGuy wrote.

I don't feel much recoil from my 6lb RRL, 28", 28 gauge ... until about the third box of shells. It has the original factory hard plate. It is so sweet of pointer and handler in the field, I did not wish to alter it at all, despite the fact I shot a 23/25 with it the first time I took it out of the box and continued to shoot rather respectable skeet scores with it. I did, however, hold down the total number of rounds of skeet with that particular gun. As I said, about the time the third box was empty, I was starting to notice recoil.

Also, over the last 15 years or so, I have become more recoil sensitive. So, I got a Browning 525, also a 28" barreled-gun, that goes about 7 lbs. It fits me lovely and I can shoot skeet (or 5-stand) with it until the cows come home. I really enjoy it.

I also have the 525's near twin in .410. Same 20-gauge frame. I adore that little gun. I find low-gun skeet with a .410 makes me bear down, acquire the bird a little quicker and not lollygag. I find it helps me in most of my shooting, and it is pain free (other than the cost of shells).

Re the 28s, I really like both of mine. I find that inside 35 yards, they will do anything you ask of them in the uplands. I can carry either one, as I am an economy-size fellow and on a half-day of of upland walking, a 6lb gun or a 7lb gun is not going to make a world of difference ... as long as I've been getting a bit of low-gun practice.

Twenty gauges? I don't know why, but one has yet to grab at my soul. I've owned plenty of all 5 common gauges, yet I find myself taking out the the 16s, 28s and .410s more and more the last couple of years. Maybe I just can't stand having shell money in my pocket. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:40 pm 
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nody,

Proverb: "28 gauge: patterns like a 20 ga, recoils like a .410"

I am sure this has been around a long time. In bygone days of paper hulls and fiber wads, the standard field load in a 3" 410 shell was 3/4 ounce, same as the standard for the 28 gauge. If you shoot a 3/4 ounce load out of either hull at about the same velocity, from a gun of similar weight, you can expect similar recoil.

The bore size of the 28 is much bigger than the 410, and the shot stack in the shell is much more compact than the strung-out column in the 410. The result is the expectation of a pattern distribution of the 28 more like that of a 20 gauge than the more finicky nature of 410 patterns.

The proverb may not be totally accurate, but it is not much in error, either.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 2:55 pm 
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QuarterChoke wrote:
nody,

Proverb: "28 gauge: patterns like a 20 ga, recoils like a .410"

I am sure this has been around a long time. In bygone days of paper hulls and fiber wads, the standard field load in a 3" 410 shell was 3/4 ounce, same as the standard for the 28 gauge. If you shoot a 3/4 ounce load out of either hull at about the same velocity, from a gun of similar weight, you can expect similar recoil.

The bore size of the 28 is much bigger than the 410, and the shot stack in the shell is much more compact than the strung-out column in the 410. The result is the expectation of a pattern distribution of the 28 more like that of a 20 gauge than the more finicky nature of 410 patterns.

The proverb may not be totally accurate, but it is not much in error, either.


Taken in that context, I can see some truth in that statement, too. I was considering my experiences with the .410, which are limited to 2 1/2" 1/2 oz loads. A 3" load with either 3/4 or 11/16 oz would be very close to the 28 ga. 3/4 oz loads' recoil; you're right about the patterning, too. Thanks for supplying a different perspective!

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:58 am 
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You guys are killing yourselves over nothing. In the same weight gun, the 20 gauge will recoil more than the 28 assuming a factory load is used. The reason is simple - the 20 throws more shot (7/8 oz. for the 20 vs. 3/4 oz. for the 28) at the same velocity, and with the assumption that the "ejecta" (shot, wad and combustion products weigh slightly more [they do]).

That doesn't mean that they will necessarily mean that they will FEEL heavier recoil - I am talking about physics, and referring to the recoil energy produced.

Gun fit, mount, how you hold the gun, and a bunch of other factors affect your "feel".

Me - I feel that 28s don't recoil, and 20s recoil "a little bit" after a lifetime of shooting 12s (I am going on 76!) I'm just sorry that I didn't start using smallbores until about 10 years ago! I quickly found out that a miss is a miss, and a hit is a hit, no matter HOW MUCH shot you throw at the target!! Why get kicked around? (And yes, I DID develop a flinch from all that 12 bore "experience", but it is rapidly disappearing!!)

BobK

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:09 pm 
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20 ga Beretta SP V, 6 lb 2.8 oz, 3/4 oz @ 1200 fps, 14 grains Green Dot: 11 ft lbs, 10 fps. 28 ga Beretta SP II, 6 lb 5.8 oz, 12.4 grains 20/28, 3/4 oz shot @ 1200 fps: 10 ft-lbs, 10 fps recoil velocity. 20 gauge 7/8 oz @ 1200 fps, 15.5 gr 20/28: 14 ft-lb recoil energy, 12 fps recoil velocity. Comparing two 6 1/4 pound shotguns of similar stock configurations, a bit more recoil to the 20 gauge but unless they were fired side by side, nothing remarkable. As you can see, 1/8 ounce more shot in 20 gauge increased recoil from 11 ft-lbs and 10 fps to 14 ft-lbs and 12 fps. If you compare similar loads in 20 gauge and 28 gauge, 3/4 oz at 1200 fps, the difference is 11 ft-lbs and 10 fps reduced to 10 ft-lbs and 10 fps. You can download the 20 gauge to reduce recoil but the crimp dishes a bit due to the low volume of the shot. This can be corrected with filler such as a 28 gauge fiber wad in the shot cup or the spent primer from the last round, no cost, already at hand. I have both and shoot both. If you really want to reduce recoil, tube a 12 gauge gun, which will add 12 ounces more or less to the barrel weight, then use any of the target level loads in 20 gauge or 28 gauge.

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Last edited by redhawk500 on Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:30 pm 
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I have a 20/28 combo which weighs the same in either setup. A 7/8 oz target load in the 20 has a noticablely higher recoil than a 3/4 oz 28 ga target load. You can do the math to see how much more. I load 3/4 oz in the 20 and you guessed it...the recoil feels just like the 28! HHD


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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:47 am 
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Because of nerve damage in my shoulder ( positioning of the butt stock is one of the factors), I need to use a lighter weight gun , and a light 28 Gauge with 3/4oz of shot or even a 410 with 1/2oz works well for me.
I wear a PAST recoil sheild as well , even with the 28, and need to use one to keep shooting, just in case anybody is wondering why....
Davide

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:57 am 
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A general question with no specific answer! It depends on the gun, the shell, and the shooter...I'm talking about actual felt recoil, not the math numbers.

With 28, the recoil that bothers me is when I have to buy new shells! OUCH!! If you want to shoot much 28, you must reload or win the Lottery. Shooting reloads, I am at about 3 bucks a box and that is about as cheap shotgun shooting as you can get.

Even reloading, I feel compelled to save money on the 28. I do so by loading a 3/4 oz 20 gauge...28 in a free yellow hull. My actual felt recoil is less than my 28 gauge reloads, I don't burn up my high dollar 28 hulls, it just crushes targets, and rolls live birds out of the air. It might even save you the cost of a 28 gauge gun!

Just another way to get there from here. Either way, I bet you come love the 3/4 oz 28 size payload. For what ever reason, it's performance far exceeds it's size.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:38 am 
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Mismost, I can apreciate and agree with pretty much everything you said; you make some very valid points. There is one thing, though, that a 28 ga gun can do that a 20 ga can't - that one thing is: it can weigh less than a 20 ga. :D

For me, the biggest benefit of carrying a "sub-gauge" is carrying a lighter gun. If I'm going to tote a 20 ga sized gun, then I'd just as soon reap the benefit of a bigger shotcharge, too.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 vs. 28 ga recoil
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:31 am 
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BPGuy wrote:
Mismost, I can apreciate and agree with pretty much everything you said; you make some very valid points. There is one thing, though, that a 28 ga gun can do that a 20 ga can't - that one thing is: it can weigh less than a 20 ga. :D

For me, the biggest benefit of carrying a "sub-gauge" is carrying a lighter gun. If I'm going to tote a 20 ga sized gun, then I'd just as soon reap the benefit of a bigger shotcharge, too.

I may be the rare exception but my lightest 20 gauge is lighter than my two lightest 28 gauge over/under shotguns.

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