CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:10 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 135 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:42 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:24 pm
Posts: 13
So, I've been shopping around for the past 6 months or so for a new sub-gauge. I believe I've decided on the type of gun (Arrieta SxS from Orvis), but not the bore/gauge. I've got 16 and 20 gauge shotguns, and I want something with more challenge. This brought me to the 28 GA and .410 bore. The 28 is often referred to as the aficionado's choice, and the .410 as the expert's gun. I assume the .410 gets this nickname/reputation because it is harder to hit your mark with it, but I'd like to know the details as to why this is.

My hang-up is this: the pattern from a .410 full choke (for instance) is the same size (diameter) as the pattern on a 28 gauge or any other gauge with a full choke (excluding outliers), right? If that's the case, shouldn't it be just as hard to hit something with any gauge as with the .410, given the same choke? Now, I'm not talking about 45 yards away or something, let's stick within the typical effective range of a .410, which seems to be generally agreed on to be 20 yards, 25 yards MAX, so we don't have to think about the .410 pattern expanding at a greater rate. Past that, it seems the .410 loses too much effectiveness due to gaps between shot.

Which brings me to density. So, if I'm correct in my assumption that the patterns are the same out to the same distance (before the .410 pattern starts expanding at an unusually fast rate), then the only difference is the density, right? If that's the case, and the .410 has less shot, and greater shot deformation, leaving bigger gaps between shot, then it would seem that what makes the .410 harder to hit with are the gaps. In other words, all else being equal, you could hit with a 28 and miss the exact same shot with the .410 even though you're dead on because the clay just happens to pass through one of the gaps in the pattern. That seems like just luck to me. So, is it luck that makes the .410 an expert's gun?

I'm assuming I've gotten something wrong, here. I find it hard to believe so many knowledgeable people would call the .410 an expert's gun, implying the need for greater skill than possessed by your average shooter, when the real difference is luck or lack of luck. Is the .410 really just as effective, within 25 yards or so, as the various gauges, it just requires you to be a better shot than you would have to with a 28, etc., or could you be dead on and not break the clay owing to bad luck? I'm hoping this post will help me get one step closer to deciding which of these two to get first.

(Let's assume the world of clays, here, by the way, as opposed to birds.)

Thanks for any and all input, guys. Sorry for the long post. Hope all's well.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:30 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5382
The gauges are patterned at 40 yards and the .410 is patterned at 25.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:25 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 6745
Location: E. Rochester NY
Because of the 25 yard pattern "standard" (due to the much smaller load of shot), you have to be on target both accurately and very quickly. Most of us don't use a .410 for that reason, although they are fun guns. We don't feel that there are enough pellets to give us consistently "dead" birds, and we don't want to wound critters.

Yet the 28 gauge, while only a slightly larger "package", seems to work well for the experienced wingshot.

BobK

_________________
BobK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:26 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:26 pm
Posts: 2022
Location: MO
While it may be a little hard to explain with words and numbers here, take a .410 to the skeet range and shoot a few rounds. The numbers on your score card will go a long way to explaining why many people call the .410 an experts gun. A .410 is a fun gun for sure, you just need to learn what you can and can't do with it. I've killed lots of early season pheasants over close working pointing dogs with a .410, but later in the season when the remaining birds were smarter, flushed wilder, and the wind was blowing 40 mph, the .410 stayed home and I moved way up the line to a 12 gauge. I've gotten older and I don't see quite as well as I did and I'm no where as quick as I was, so my small gauge is now a 28, but I still move to a bigger gun as the shots get tougher.

_________________
If there is an ad for something at the end of my post, I did not put it there and I'm not endorsing the company or product myself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:54 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:24 pm
Posts: 13
Thanks for the input, guys. Maybe it will all click when I compare them side by side on the same shots. Luckily, a friend of mine has recently invited me to try his 28 Parker Reproduction and .410 Browning Citori.

I believe the 28 is for me, but the .410 sure is fun as well, and I'll likely add one of those to my collection sometime in the future.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:20 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 387
Location: E. Central WI
Maybe part of it is that when the target shooting "experts" step on the station with a .410, they likely will NOT be thinking, "Oooh, it's the .410! I better be careful." They are more likely thinking something like, "Shoot the target!".

That said, there is less room for error with the smaller amount of shot.

BUT, there is also a reverse relationship with the amount of shot needed to crush a target and the fun you have doing it. In other words, breaking targets with a .410 is just too much fun to pass up. :D For my hunting though, grouse and woodcock get the 28 ga., bigger birds, 20 and 12. (Lots of 20!)

Have fun with that little gun soon as you get the chance!

BB


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:32 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:15 am
Posts: 321
Location: Maine
Full choke is 70% pattern density at 40 yards

Full choke on a .410 is 70% pattern at 25 yards.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:41 am 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:30 am
Posts: 1952
I guess I'm a Expert then. I have shot a train car load of game with a 410 over the years. I love the little meat gun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:18 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:48 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Reedley Ca.
SharpshooterWPG wrote:
My hang-up is this: the pattern from a .410 full choke (for instance) is the same size (diameter) as the pattern on a 28 gauge or any other gauge with a full choke (excluding outliers), right? If that's the case, shouldn't it be just as hard to hit something with any gauge as with the .410, given the same choke?


This is not quite accurate. The pattern diameter might be the same, but pattern density will be greater with larger payloads of shot. Denser patterns means more downed birds or broken targets. While either can be accomplished by a single magic pellet, most believe it takes 2-3 pellet strikes to get the desired effect.

Another misleading point of information is the pattern board. It shows results only in two demensions, heighth and width, while the actual pattern (or key word, shot string) flying through the air has depth. With in-coming or dead away targets this isn't as critical. With crossing targets longer shot strings equal a high percentage of hit targets.

With all that being said, my Winchester model 42 .410 is one of my favorite Skeet and early dove guns. The .410 is also the greatest wounder of upland and waterfowl game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:52 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:12 pm
Posts: 4170
Location: Artesia, NM
I for one do not believe that "a full-choke is a full choke", regardless of bore-size. It stands to reason, to me anyway, that a larger bore with throw a larger pattern. I read somewhere that at skeet distances and with skeet chokes, a 12 ga will throw 28-30" patterns, a 20 ga will throw 26-28" patterns, 28 ga around 24-26" patterns, and the little .410 18-20" patterns; that's a considerable drop-off. These pattern sizes are approximate, of course.

I also recently did a little research, and I discovered that when looking at the scores of the top 10 skeet shooters in the country, scores only dropped by 1 bird per 1000 when going from 20 ga to 28 ga, but they dropped 8.5 per 1000 when going from 28 ga to .410.

That's a substantial difference! And that is represented by the best shooters in the country. You and I would drop quite a bit more than that.

Now, y'all can parse this however you choose (and I'm sure some will), but the bottom line to me is this: The 28 ga is very close in performance (comparing the standard 20 ga 7/8 oz load vs. the 28 ga 3/4 oz load), and is head and shoulders above the .410. Not to say you can't be successful with the "idiot stick" (so called because I often feel like an idiot after I shoot it!), you just need to be a very good shooter to do so.

And that is why, in my opinion, the .410 is "an expert's gun".

_________________
Like the 28 Gauge?

Check out the 28 Ga Society! Copy/paste into your URL window:

28gasociety.46.forum er.com

Delete the space between "forum" and "er", and hit the "Enter" key. SGW's softer buggers direct links.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:38 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:24 am
Posts: 406
Location: Arkansas Delta
They call it the expert's gun because if you stick with it you will become an expert!

_________________
NRA Endowment Member
DRSS


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:45 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:27 am
Posts: 3656
Location: Silicon Valley
I shoot a 410 on pheasants and it kills them fine if I do my part. I shoot 6's to be safe, and I'm shooting over a dog too, and never shoot beyond 35 yards. And a pheasant is bigger than a clay... A few added comments on 410's that often get overlooked: 1) The payload usually leaves the muzzle much faster than a similar, larger gauge load, like in the 1300 to 1500 FPS ranges. 2) The shot string is very long relative to its diameter, longer than a 20GA -- so it "strafes" your target more than pelts it, and as long as you have enough lead, you'll usually kill any bird inside 35 yds. However, because the payload is faster, you don't need quite as much lead as you do with your big gun -- if that makes sense. 3) Choke constrictions on the 410 don't matter much at all; for example you can hardly tell any performance difference between IC and M in a field situation -- you maybe get an extra 5 yards? Hence, if I wanted more substantive pattern/performance differences between barrels, I'd use IC/IM as a close to ideal "all around" set, or IC/IC for skeet, quail and grouse.

Re the 28 GA... My experience is there is very little practical difference in use between a 7/8's 20GA load and a 3/4 oz 28GA load, and both are vastly superior beyond 30 yds compared to the 410. IMHO, the only real advantage of the 28 for field use over a comparable 20, is with a gun that has a true-to-gauge smaller frame, as it's going to be lighter than its sister 20. OTOH if you look at specs for companies that make their 28's on the 20 frame, most of the 28's weigh MORE than that sister 20 by 3 or 4 ounces... (Some companies offer aluminum versions of their small frame guns for this reason. IMHO, not a bad choice for a field gun that gets carried a lot more than it gets shot.)

_________________
Jack

617422, I like K guns

~~ "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence." ~~


Last edited by JacksBack on Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:00 am 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 14449
Location: Plainfield, IL
SharpshooterWPG wrote:
Is the .410 really just as effective, within 25 yards or so, as the various gauges, it just requires you to be a better shot than you would have to with a 28, etc., or could you be dead on and not break the clay owing to bad luck? I'm hoping this post will help me get one step closer to deciding which of these two to get first.

(Let's assume the world of clays, here, by the way, as opposed to birds.)



No, the .410 bore isn't remotely as effective as a 28 gauge. If it was, there would be no reason for it to have its own class in skeet.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:22 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:24 pm
Posts: 13
Ok, so, just to say in advance, the pure fun of the .410 has convinced me I at least need a combo set like they used to do with the Citori - 28 and .410.

That being said - So, Mr. Wakeman (or really anyone), why is it not as effective? I think that's what I'm trying to get at here. I know that in reality people just don't hit as much - skeet records and more anecdotal evidence that cause people to call their .410 "the idiot stick" or other names speak to that. BUT, why is this so? I guess this is more of a theoretical level?

Maybe it depends on the target. I think we can probably ignore a stationary target for this. So, I'm thinking it's the pattern on a moving target that makes it harder to hit with the .410. It's got a longer shot column length to diameter ratio, which causes 1) a relatively longer string, and 2) a relatively larger amount of shot deformation. Shot deformation apparently causes a relatively larger amount of fliers causing an already otherwise sparse density (owing to less shot contained in the shell and that's already spread out over a longer string) to have more holes and spread quicker (once you get past a certain distance) than with the gauges. Does this seem correct?

That being said, this should be most pronounced on targets where all these factors come into play, like, say, a target past 25 yards (which allows the effects of shot deformation (holes and increased rate of spread) to take effect) that is also moving perpendicular to the shotgun (allowing the longer string to take the most effect).

Conversely, if the target was close enough that the increased deformation and spread rate hadn't yet made a practical difference, and the target was moving, in another extreme, perpendicular and right in front of the shotgun, moving only in the three dimensional plan, it would seem that these "limiting characteristics" of the .410 would have no practical effect on performance.

Now I realize you don't necessarily get shots at targets moving on a plane either perfectly perpendicular to that of the length of the shotgun, nor those moving directly in front of the shotgun and varying only in distance from the shooter, so your calculations in taking the shot apparently have to consider some combination of the above two extremes.

Lol, well maybe I'd do better if I could draw this out. For any of y'all who are still interested and with me here, thanks for playing along, and please feel free to show me where I'm not quite hitting the mark (cheesy pun intended) - my goal is a better understanding. I hope I've clearly and accurately described what I'm thinking here. Have a nice day, everyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:36 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 6745
Location: E. Rochester NY
Sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. I guess that a lot of us understand that a certain minimum number of pellets (called a "payload") of a certain size are required to reliably break a target (or kill a bird or bunny) at a given range.

While the .410 has enough pellets ("payload")to do it at certain ranges, those ranges are very short, compared to the other gauges.

_________________
BobK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:44 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:24 pm
Posts: 13
Sorry, Bob, and everyone else - I guess I'm just not explaining myself well enough. I understand the range/distance issue, so I tried to limit my explanation to something that I thought was typically accepted as the .410's maximum effective range. That's all right, though. I'm looking forward to learning more first hand and from others re. the .410. I'm sure I'll better pin down what I'm getting at and figure things out more in the future.

Thanks to y'all who took the time to read and consider - I appreciate the learned input.

Y'all have a good day.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:58 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 14449
Location: Plainfield, IL
The .410 bore has been called a lot of things, including "the taxidermist's gun." In American skeet, the .410 class exists as a handicap compared to other gauges despite short ranges, fine shot, and predictable clay targets. There is only so much a light payload can do and it isn't nearly as consistently effective as 28 gauge with light target loads or 20 gauges with light target loads, either.

If you just want something "different" and "fun"-- the 28 gauge makes a lot more sense than a .410 bore. If it is just about "challenge" just shoot 3/4 oz. loads out of a 20 . . . that lowers pattern density compared to 1 oz. 20 gauge loads. Seeking thin patterns isn't normally a fabulous idea, but lowering payloads tend to do that.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:22 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:48 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Reedley Ca.
If you're shooting only clay targets then by all means, get yourself a .410. If you are considering it for hunting then know that a significant amount of your game you hit will escape your bag, only to die a slow painful death. I hunt with a .410..... on opening day of Dove season only. I limit my shots to basically the high 8 station, they either fly away with all feathers intact or I hit them so hard it's dove spagetti night. I have hunted planted birds (pheasants & chukars) with it over very good dogs in open fields. I saw too many birds hit hard enough that with a 28 or 20 would have been D.R.T. (dead right there), but instead sailed almost out of sight when hit with the .410. While it made for some good long range retrieves, it is not something I'd care to repeat or be in the company of hunters using one.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:44 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:24 pm
Posts: 13
Thanks for the recommendations. I think I'll be looking for a combo set in 28 and .410. I'm not looking to maim game, but I'd like to have a .410 in my collection as it'd at least make for some fun and challenging clay shooting. I love the 28, but don't yet have one of those either (my current guns are all 12, 20, and 16), and I think that makes an excellent classy upland gun that I could see myself taking quail with back down South.

Thanks again and hope all's well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:51 am 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:36 pm
Posts: 1907
Location: In the back yard burying my 2nd Ammendment Rights.
The .410 balistics are the same as a 12g, with fewer pellets. I shoot a number 8 at 1300 fps. That exceeds my 12g load in foot pounds of energy, but of course as mentioned here there are fewer pells by half. So the only tell will be if you are pointing it correctly. Once I figured this out, my scores leaped. Aim where you should and the gun will do all the work for you.



_________________
COELIS IMPERAMUS


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 135 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 2lo8s, albatros, Aquaflow, BBSRQ, bigcat1, Bing [Bot], Bladeswitcher, Bob_K, Bubzola, claybuster 1, claysmoker, CLuttrell, Dalwhinnie, Drew Hause, ellisjre, geoh, Gone shootin, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, Green machine, hdjno83, hlj3, hopper810, hovbuild, ithacarick, Itora, Kyrie, la angler, MAB54, madds, PJDiesel, ptbrew, Raven2009, SCShotgunHunter, skeetfreak, skeetldoo, Snotrub, SuperXThree, talbtimber, tjwood77, WithBBQSauce, woodcock1


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice