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What exactly makes the .410 an "expert's gun"?

24K views 134 replies 42 participants last post by  Redcobra 
#1 ·
So, I've been shopping around for the past 6 months or so for a new sub-gauge. I believe I've decided on the type of gun (Arrieta SxS from Orvis), but not the bore/gauge. I've got 16 and 20 gauge shotguns, and I want something with more challenge. This brought me to the 28 GA and .410 bore. The 28 is often referred to as the aficionado's choice, and the .410 as the expert's gun. I assume the .410 gets this nickname/reputation because it is harder to hit your mark with it, but I'd like to know the details as to why this is.

My hang-up is this: the pattern from a .410 full choke (for instance) is the same size (diameter) as the pattern on a 28 gauge or any other gauge with a full choke (excluding outliers), right? If that's the case, shouldn't it be just as hard to hit something with any gauge as with the .410, given the same choke? Now, I'm not talking about 45 yards away or something, let's stick within the typical effective range of a .410, which seems to be generally agreed on to be 20 yards, 25 yards MAX, so we don't have to think about the .410 pattern expanding at a greater rate. Past that, it seems the .410 loses too much effectiveness due to gaps between shot.

Which brings me to density. So, if I'm correct in my assumption that the patterns are the same out to the same distance (before the .410 pattern starts expanding at an unusually fast rate), then the only difference is the density, right? If that's the case, and the .410 has less shot, and greater shot deformation, leaving bigger gaps between shot, then it would seem that what makes the .410 harder to hit with are the gaps. In other words, all else being equal, you could hit with a 28 and miss the exact same shot with the .410 even though you're dead on because the clay just happens to pass through one of the gaps in the pattern. That seems like just luck to me. So, is it luck that makes the .410 an expert's gun?

I'm assuming I've gotten something wrong, here. I find it hard to believe so many knowledgeable people would call the .410 an expert's gun, implying the need for greater skill than possessed by your average shooter, when the real difference is luck or lack of luck. Is the .410 really just as effective, within 25 yards or so, as the various gauges, it just requires you to be a better shot than you would have to with a 28, etc., or could you be dead on and not break the clay owing to bad luck? I'm hoping this post will help me get one step closer to deciding which of these two to get first.

(Let's assume the world of clays, here, by the way, as opposed to birds.)

Thanks for any and all input, guys. Sorry for the long post. Hope all's well.
 
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#3 ·
Because of the 25 yard pattern "standard" (due to the much smaller load of shot), you have to be on target both accurately and very quickly. Most of us don't use a .410 for that reason, although they are fun guns. We don't feel that there are enough pellets to give us consistently "dead" birds, and we don't want to wound critters.

Yet the 28 gauge, while only a slightly larger "package", seems to work well for the experienced wingshot.

BobK
 
#4 ·
While it may be a little hard to explain with words and numbers here, take a .410 to the skeet range and shoot a few rounds. The numbers on your score card will go a long way to explaining why many people call the .410 an experts gun. A .410 is a fun gun for sure, you just need to learn what you can and can't do with it. I've killed lots of early season pheasants over close working pointing dogs with a .410, but later in the season when the remaining birds were smarter, flushed wilder, and the wind was blowing 40 mph, the .410 stayed home and I moved way up the line to a 12 gauge. I've gotten older and I don't see quite as well as I did and I'm no where as quick as I was, so my small gauge is now a 28, but I still move to a bigger gun as the shots get tougher.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the input, guys. Maybe it will all click when I compare them side by side on the same shots. Luckily, a friend of mine has recently invited me to try his 28 Parker Reproduction and .410 Browning Citori.

I believe the 28 is for me, but the .410 sure is fun as well, and I'll likely add one of those to my collection sometime in the future.
 
#6 ·
Maybe part of it is that when the target shooting "experts" step on the station with a .410, they likely will NOT be thinking, "Oooh, it's the .410! I better be careful." They are more likely thinking something like, "Shoot the target!".

That said, there is less room for error with the smaller amount of shot.

BUT, there is also a reverse relationship with the amount of shot needed to crush a target and the fun you have doing it. In other words, breaking targets with a .410 is just too much fun to pass up. :D For my hunting though, grouse and woodcock get the 28 ga., bigger birds, 20 and 12. (Lots of 20!)

Have fun with that little gun soon as you get the chance!

BB
 
#9 ·
SharpshooterWPG said:
My hang-up is this: the pattern from a .410 full choke (for instance) is the same size (diameter) as the pattern on a 28 gauge or any other gauge with a full choke (excluding outliers), right? If that's the case, shouldn't it be just as hard to hit something with any gauge as with the .410, given the same choke?
This is not quite accurate. The pattern diameter might be the same, but pattern density will be greater with larger payloads of shot. Denser patterns means more downed birds or broken targets. While either can be accomplished by a single magic pellet, most believe it takes 2-3 pellet strikes to get the desired effect.

Another misleading point of information is the pattern board. It shows results only in two demensions, heighth and width, while the actual pattern (or key word, shot string) flying through the air has depth. With in-coming or dead away targets this isn't as critical. With crossing targets longer shot strings equal a high percentage of hit targets.

With all that being said, my Winchester model 42 .410 is one of my favorite Skeet and early dove guns. The .410 is also the greatest wounder of upland and waterfowl game.
 
#10 ·
I for one do not believe that "a full-choke is a full choke", regardless of bore-size. It stands to reason, to me anyway, that a larger bore with throw a larger pattern. I read somewhere that at skeet distances and with skeet chokes, a 12 ga will throw 28-30" patterns, a 20 ga will throw 26-28" patterns, 28 ga around 24-26" patterns, and the little .410 18-20" patterns; that's a considerable drop-off. These pattern sizes are approximate, of course.

I also recently did a little research, and I discovered that when looking at the scores of the top 10 skeet shooters in the country, scores only dropped by 1 bird per 1000 when going from 20 ga to 28 ga, but they dropped 8.5 per 1000 when going from 28 ga to .410.

That's a substantial difference! And that is represented by the best shooters in the country. You and I would drop quite a bit more than that.

Now, y'all can parse this however you choose (and I'm sure some will), but the bottom line to me is this: The 28 ga is very close in performance (comparing the standard 20 ga 7/8 oz load vs. the 28 ga 3/4 oz load), and is head and shoulders above the .410. Not to say you can't be successful with the "idiot stick" (so called because I often feel like an idiot after I shoot it!), you just need to be a very good shooter to do so.

And that is why, in my opinion, the .410 is "an expert's gun".
 
#12 ·
I shoot a 410 on pheasants and it kills them fine if I do my part. I shoot 6's to be safe, and I'm shooting over a dog too, and never shoot beyond 35 yards. And a pheasant is bigger than a clay... A few added comments on 410's that often get overlooked: 1) The payload usually leaves the muzzle much faster than a similar, larger gauge load, like in the 1300 to 1500 FPS ranges. 2) The shot string is very long relative to its diameter, longer than a 20GA -- so it "strafes" your target more than pelts it, and as long as you have enough lead, you'll usually kill any bird inside 35 yds. However, because the payload is faster, you don't need quite as much lead as you do with your big gun -- if that makes sense. 3) Choke constrictions on the 410 don't matter much at all; for example you can hardly tell any performance difference between IC and M in a field situation -- you maybe get an extra 5 yards? Hence, if I wanted more substantive pattern/performance differences between barrels, I'd use IC/IM as a close to ideal "all around" set, or IC/IC for skeet, quail and grouse.

Re the 28 GA... My experience is there is very little practical difference in use between a 7/8's 20GA load and a 3/4 oz 28GA load, and both are vastly superior beyond 30 yds compared to the 410. IMHO, the only real advantage of the 28 for field use over a comparable 20, is with a gun that has a true-to-gauge smaller frame, as it's going to be lighter than its sister 20. OTOH if you look at specs for companies that make their 28's on the 20 frame, most of the 28's weigh MORE than that sister 20 by 3 or 4 ounces... (Some companies offer aluminum versions of their small frame guns for this reason. IMHO, not a bad choice for a field gun that gets carried a lot more than it gets shot.)
 
#13 ·
SharpshooterWPG said:
Is the .410 really just as effective, within 25 yards or so, as the various gauges, it just requires you to be a better shot than you would have to with a 28, etc., or could you be dead on and not break the clay owing to bad luck? I'm hoping this post will help me get one step closer to deciding which of these two to get first.

(Let's assume the world of clays, here, by the way, as opposed to birds.)
No, the .410 bore isn't remotely as effective as a 28 gauge. If it was, there would be no reason for it to have its own class in skeet.
 
#14 ·
Ok, so, just to say in advance, the pure fun of the .410 has convinced me I at least need a combo set like they used to do with the Citori - 28 and .410.

That being said - So, Mr. Wakeman (or really anyone), why is it not as effective? I think that's what I'm trying to get at here. I know that in reality people just don't hit as much - skeet records and more anecdotal evidence that cause people to call their .410 "the idiot stick" or other names speak to that. BUT, why is this so? I guess this is more of a theoretical level?

Maybe it depends on the target. I think we can probably ignore a stationary target for this. So, I'm thinking it's the pattern on a moving target that makes it harder to hit with the .410. It's got a longer shot column length to diameter ratio, which causes 1) a relatively longer string, and 2) a relatively larger amount of shot deformation. Shot deformation apparently causes a relatively larger amount of fliers causing an already otherwise sparse density (owing to less shot contained in the shell and that's already spread out over a longer string) to have more holes and spread quicker (once you get past a certain distance) than with the gauges. Does this seem correct?

That being said, this should be most pronounced on targets where all these factors come into play, like, say, a target past 25 yards (which allows the effects of shot deformation (holes and increased rate of spread) to take effect) that is also moving perpendicular to the shotgun (allowing the longer string to take the most effect).

Conversely, if the target was close enough that the increased deformation and spread rate hadn't yet made a practical difference, and the target was moving, in another extreme, perpendicular and right in front of the shotgun, moving only in the three dimensional plan, it would seem that these "limiting characteristics" of the .410 would have no practical effect on performance.

Now I realize you don't necessarily get shots at targets moving on a plane either perfectly perpendicular to that of the length of the shotgun, nor those moving directly in front of the shotgun and varying only in distance from the shooter, so your calculations in taking the shot apparently have to consider some combination of the above two extremes.

Lol, well maybe I'd do better if I could draw this out. For any of y'all who are still interested and with me here, thanks for playing along, and please feel free to show me where I'm not quite hitting the mark (cheesy pun intended) - my goal is a better understanding. I hope I've clearly and accurately described what I'm thinking here. Have a nice day, everyone.
 
#15 ·
Sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. I guess that a lot of us understand that a certain minimum number of pellets (called a "payload") of a certain size are required to reliably break a target (or kill a bird or bunny) at a given range.

While the .410 has enough pellets ("payload")to do it at certain ranges, those ranges are very short, compared to the other gauges.
 
#16 ·
Sorry, Bob, and everyone else - I guess I'm just not explaining myself well enough. I understand the range/distance issue, so I tried to limit my explanation to something that I thought was typically accepted as the .410's maximum effective range. That's all right, though. I'm looking forward to learning more first hand and from others re. the .410. I'm sure I'll better pin down what I'm getting at and figure things out more in the future.

Thanks to y'all who took the time to read and consider - I appreciate the learned input.

Y'all have a good day.
 
#17 ·
The .410 bore has been called a lot of things, including "the taxidermist's gun." In American skeet, the .410 class exists as a handicap compared to other gauges despite short ranges, fine shot, and predictable clay targets. There is only so much a light payload can do and it isn't nearly as consistently effective as 28 gauge with light target loads or 20 gauges with light target loads, either.

If you just want something "different" and "fun"-- the 28 gauge makes a lot more sense than a .410 bore. If it is just about "challenge" just shoot 3/4 oz. loads out of a 20 . . . that lowers pattern density compared to 1 oz. 20 gauge loads. Seeking thin patterns isn't normally a fabulous idea, but lowering payloads tend to do that.
 
#18 ·
If you're shooting only clay targets then by all means, get yourself a .410. If you are considering it for hunting then know that a significant amount of your game you hit will escape your bag, only to die a slow painful death. I hunt with a .410..... on opening day of Dove season only. I limit my shots to basically the high 8 station, they either fly away with all feathers intact or I hit them so hard it's dove spagetti night. I have hunted planted birds (pheasants & chukars) with it over very good dogs in open fields. I saw too many birds hit hard enough that with a 28 or 20 would have been D.R.T. (dead right there), but instead sailed almost out of sight when hit with the .410. While it made for some good long range retrieves, it is not something I'd care to repeat or be in the company of hunters using one.
 
#19 ·
Thanks for the recommendations. I think I'll be looking for a combo set in 28 and .410. I'm not looking to maim game, but I'd like to have a .410 in my collection as it'd at least make for some fun and challenging clay shooting. I love the 28, but don't yet have one of those either (my current guns are all 12, 20, and 16), and I think that makes an excellent classy upland gun that I could see myself taking quail with back down South.

Thanks again and hope all's well.
 
#20 ·
The .410 balistics are the same as a 12g, with fewer pellets. I shoot a number 8 at 1300 fps. That exceeds my 12g load in foot pounds of energy, but of course as mentioned here there are fewer pells by half. So the only tell will be if you are pointing it correctly. Once I figured this out, my scores leaped. Aim where you should and the gun will do all the work for you.
 
#21 ·
The first thing to get straight is that choke describes a percentage. 1 pellet out of 2 fired gives the same choke as 175 of 350 fired. Pattern density is what matters to birds and targets. I gather from your first post that you get this.

It's also true that choke in the .410 is, by definition, determined by patterning at 25 yds. The reasons for this are several. But remember, when the definition was established shotcups had not been invented. Modern loads will do better than fiber/card wad loads. I've got "full" M-42 that will do 60% and a roughly 20" no-fly zone with 3" RPs in #6 at a full 40 yds. Closer to 70% but still no cigar. The long shot column combined with the paucity of 3" loadings using full-length shotcup petals makes for a fair amount of shot scrubbing. This results in pellet attrition. Interestingly, this attrition seems to occur pretty early, so that the functional pellets fly about as well as those from a 12. In other words the .410 pattern distribution is better seen as bi-modal.

So why care about choke at all? Well, pattern density is good, but effective circle diameter is important, too. It's nice to have enough of each. We compromise with all gauges, but we must compromise more with the .410.

Anyway, to raise pattern density to acceptably lethal levels many .410ers choke up. I use modified choke M-42s in grouse/WC cover. In very approximate terms, I get the same pellet density but larger effective patterns (= more wiggle room) with the 1.125 oz "cyl" 12. Having to work with a smaller effective pattern puts a premium on technique, cheek-weld, proper lead, etc., etc.

Then, the challenge and discipline are the juice for some of us.

Sam
 
#22 ·
SharpshooterWPG,
One relatively inexpensive way to get into 28 ga. and .410 is with Gauge Mates. I bought a pair of 28ga. and 410 GM's for use in my Arrietta 20 ga. SXS and they work great. The smoke targets and Ihave even taken several Grouse and Woodcock with them. In fact I got so hooked on shooting 28 and 410 that I just bought a Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon II two barrel Sporting set (28/410 with 30" barrels) from Joel Etchin so I am planning to sell the Gauge-Mates for $125.00 per set (they list for $169 each) plus shipping. They'll fit in any 20ga. SXS or O/U.

Drop me you email address and I can send photos. My email address is: saltydogcharters@comcast.net.

Capt. Jim Hannon aka Saltydog1
 
#23 ·
IMO part of the reason for viewing the .410 as an "expert's" gun is that most of the lower-priced models come with a fixed full choke. It's done in an attempt to increase range, but it makes for very narrow patterns at shorter ranges. That gives very little margin for error, and even a larger gauge would also cause frustration if used for upland game with a full choke.

Any shotgun becomes a crippler if used beyond its effective range. If you're going to hunt with a smaller payload you have a greater responsibility to know that range and have the self--discipline to pass on shots outside of it.
 
#24 ·
Because if you are hitting consistently with it, you are an expert :)

I'm going back to your technical break down, and inferring luck .... I think it's a matter of perspective.

Another way to look at this is to study the shot densities of the pattern. Given a certain distance and clay pigeon presentation (keeping it simple, staying out of hunting) you can calculate out the right choke/pattern size that delivers a 95% chance of delivering a 2 pellet hit (or three or whatever choice you want).

All other things being equal, the pattern size (and hence the amount you can "miss" from the center of your pattern) is smaller for the .410 ... thus a better hold is required .... thus an expert can better achieve that hold. If you are in the part of the pattern where the hit probability is significantly less than 90% ... I'd argue that you really missed. You will randomly get some hits, but in reality you missed. You need to have the discipline to realize that you missed on those broken birds (if you can call your shots) in order to get better. Another way is to shoot enough clays (1000's) to learn when you are off the sure kill hold. Again, I think it's a matter of perspective, semantics and the knowledge that you can miss the optimal hold and still break a bird.

Expand to the hunting ... fundamentally the above holds true. Also consider that you are sticking with a single choke ... and so you'll need to be closer to the game to get in the sweet spot. Closer to game can mean more expert in the craft of hunting.

My favorite reason is to knock sense into all of the dad's/teachers of the world who start their students off with .410's ... because our dads/granddads/great granddads etc did it. I believe the lighter frame and reduced recoil are important for first time/small framed shooters. But give them something that produces reliable hits ... the 28 ga. HITTING is fun and brings them back. a low recoil miss is NOT fun for our first timers!!!!! .410 is not a beginners shotgun, and I think the label "experts gun" highlights that idea.

OK, didn't realize this soap box was so tall, someone help me down?
 
#25 ·
"Experts" don't use the .410 to shoot live game birds, egomaniacs do. The .410 also does not have the same size pattern as the other gauges, choke for choke. The shot load is so small, and most .410's throw such a poor pattern that using it for bird hunting is really the poorest choice in my opinion. In my view the .410 is a lot of fun on the skeet field and a run of 25 or 50 straight with one represents an accomplishment. Wounding/crippling a bunch of game birds that would be killed outright with an appropriate gauge gun isn't something to be proud of in my opinion. If you're looking "for more of a challenge" go break 50 straight on your local sporting clays layout with your .410.
 
#26 ·
I don't call it egomania so much as confidence. When I shoot my .410 I know that it will do exactly what I ask of it. Nothing less. The round is exactly the same as a 12g with fewer pells. 1300 fps with #8's. BUT with 205 instead of 410 pells. So the choke, the pattern the barrel length etc ad nauseum mean that if I hit it with the pellets, it goes down. If I miss I miss just as I would in a 12g environment. But I focus harder when shooting the little gun.
 
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