CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:31 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:48 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:14 am
Posts: 72
Location: London U.K.
Dear fellow left handed shooters,

I am right handed but have always shot left handed due to left eye dominance. I have owned a few guns in my time and having them altered from right to left handed has always been an issue. Only once did I own a true left handed gun which was made as such straight from the factory. All my other guns including my current one have had to be altered from right to left.

I currently have a side plated Beretta O/U which I bought new. Unfortunately this gun was not available true left handed directly from the factory in Italy since it was being discontinued here in the UK. The Beretta UK sole agent / importer (GMK Ltd) had a few remaining right handed guns and wanted to clear them out and no longer import any more. Hence I got a great deal on the gun via a dealer, but that's another long story. GMK did however alter the gun for me free of charge in their UK workshop where Beretta trained gun-stockers work. The stock was not bent using hot oil or steam. It was altered at the stock head where it joins the action by removing and adding wood internally behind each side of the decorative side plates. The end result is a slight left hand cast from the action, along the comb to the heel. BUT--- the toe still points right because of the original right handed twist to make the toe go slightly more to the right. If it was a true left handed stock, the toe would point and project slightly more to the left than the heel. I think it is all to do with comfort in the shoulder pocket.

I would very much like your opinions regarding this toe anomaly. Is it something unsatisfactory, or something unimportant that we left handers just have to accept when altering a right handed stock.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:34 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:22 pm
Posts: 6837
Location: ATHENS,TX.
Have you looked around for some left handed wood :?: You might be able to maybe even find a used set.

Just a thought :D

_________________
Jerry

TSRA LIFE MEMBER
NSCA #610xxx
http://www.rosecityflyingclays.com/
http://www.caneycreeklodge.net/shootingsports.html
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:39 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:14 am
Posts: 72
Location: London U.K.
This gun has outstanding wood and I seriously cannot afford to replace it to the same grade. Sensible idea though, but too pricey for me.

I guess the question is all about cast at heel and cast at toe, and should I be concerned about the toe still pointing right albeit that the cast at heel and along the comb from the action is actually left. The whole stock has moved over to the left which is fine, but that right hand cast at toe is still present. The only way to make it point left would be to twist the stock. Apparently this is not realistically feasible, or so I have been told. Therefore I am guessing that anybody who has had the stock on their gun cast from right to left would still have the toe pointing right. Of course this is assuming that the toe had a little extra right cast twist to begin with which is apparently good practice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:56 pm 
Limited Edition
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:28 am
Posts: 382
Location: illinois
I think the twist at toe is so that the pad fits better in the shoulder pocket for less fatigue from the recoil hitting crossing muscle fiber , if you run your thumb in the shoulder pocket you'll notice it's not straight but for hunting i don't think it's a big deal but if you shoot 5-7 hundred rounds a week it helps , you can have an adjustable recoil butt plate installed which will achieve the same thing.

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:31 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:14 am
Posts: 72
Location: London U.K.
Hi Clayshard,

Always good to hear from you. An adjustable butt plate is a good idea but you know what my gun looks like. I know aesthetics are not paramount but I just think such a butt plate would appear out of place on such a traditional looking field gun. I think it would look great on a sporting type gun. But you have put my mind at rest a little by agreeing that the cast at toe is more for comfort. I don't shoot hundreds of cartridges a week since I mostly go hunting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:08 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 4582
Location: Brillion, WI
John,

In my opinion, you are at a considerable disadvantage hunting with your gun. There is a good chance that with the stock's cast "off" for a right-handed shooter, there will be considerable barrel rise during recoil. If this is the case, it will take longer to get on a target for a second shot. That is unless, for whatever reason, the "pitch" on the stock (pitch is the angle formed by the butt and the rib - near 90 degrees) is such that the whole recoil pad, top to bottom, makes simultaneous contact with your shoulder as the guni is being mounted.

Also, with cast off, you will have difficulty getting consistent gun mounts - the toe of the butt will make contact with your shoulder in the wrong place. And if you cant (rotate) the gun as you mount it to compenmsate for the cast, it can introudce other problems.

I suggest you consider ordering a "do-it-yourself" stock from http://www.wenig.com. You or someone familiar with woodworking can finish inletting the stock to the receiver and finish it. If you choose the right stock dimensions (variations from standard are availalbe), you will have the benefit of a custom stock designed for your size and shape and for left-handed shooting. It would be one that you can shoot comfortably, while using a preferred shooting form.


[Edit]
If this is out of the question, consider checking to make sure the pitch is correct for you, shorten the stock slightly if needed and install a pad adjuster as was suggested above.

_________________
Rollin

Author: Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition - Gun-fitting & shooting instruction for shooters of all ages and disciplines. http://www.amazon.com in their book section.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:56 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:14 am
Posts: 72
Location: London U.K.
Rollin,

I wish I could come to you with my gun for a thorough consultation, but unfortunately the great pond is in the way. I shall go to a stock fitter over here in the UK and get to the bottom of this, and then come back to you with my findings. I very much appreciate your professional help and you have given me the incentive to sort this out whatever the cost.

Many Thanks

John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:14 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:14 am
Posts: 72
Location: London U.K.
Dear All,

Happy New Year and apologies for not reporting back sooner. I wanted to investigate my gun stock situation thoroughly before coming back, especially since Rollin had given me such professional advice.

I took myself and my gun to a very reputable company of gunsmiths here in England. For your information they are called Ladbrook & Langton. Firstly the gun stocker asked me to mount the gun and point it straight at him. He said that I was sighting down the rib well. He then put the gun in a measuring jig to examine the cast. The heel has a left hand cast of 1mm which is a fraction under 1/16th of an inch, and the toe has a right hand cast of 2mm which is a fraction over 1/16th. He said that it is essentially a straight stock. Again he asked me to mount and remount and said I looked fine with it, to go away and not worry about it.

I forgot to ask him to check the pitch so I did it myself using a method I found on an American website called Bill Hanus Birdguns. I simply stood the gun upright on the floor ensuring the whole butt made contact and slid it against a wall until the action touched the wall. The muzzle pitched away from the wall about 2 1/2 inches, which according to the website is about right. The website says two to three inches down pitch is normal.

What do you think Ronnin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:39 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 4582
Location: Brillion, WI
Hi, John,

I forgot that i had written something on this forum; your PM reminded me.

I agree that your stock is esentially neutral. However, if it were me, I would strongly consider a Jones or 100-Straight type pad adjuster, (but then, I'm a perfectionist).

How the pitch measure is much less important than how well it fits your shoulder conformatin and your shooting form. This can be checked ONLY by mounting the gun and noticing how the recoil pad or butt plabe makes contact with your shoulder.

If you can, forget that the stock is very slightly a left-handes stock. Close your eye and mount the gun as closely to the way you would mount it when humting, as possible.

If the whole butt, top to bottom, makes simultaneous contact with your shoulder during the mount, the pitch is as it should be, for you. If, on the other hand, the toe makes contact with your shoulder more than just a little before thetop, heel ofteh butt, I suggest you seriously consider having the pitch corrected.

I have very limited experience with stock bending but from what I know, you would be less than likely to have the cast at the toe changed by having the stock bent.

If necessary, I believe that pitch is probably the key to getting the stock to be as normal as possible. Personally, I believe that cast is probably the least important of the five primary stock dimensions.

The usual compensation for the wrong cast is a change in the stance, rotating it in the direction of th eside of the gun mount. However, this may make targets traveling in the direction opposite the side of the gun-mount more difficult to overtake with the muzzle.

A left-handed shooter compensating for inadequate cast at the heel, would rotate the body/stance counterclockwise but may find that targets traveling to the right are slightly more difficult to overtake without having to arm-swing the gun near the end of the swing (when body rotation at the waist and hips is the preferred way of swinging laterally).

_________________
Rollin

Author: Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition - Gun-fitting & shooting instruction for shooters of all ages and disciplines. http://www.amazon.com in their book section.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Twist at toe on left handed stock.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:35 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:28 pm
Posts: 3766
Location: Dutchess County, NY
John Bishop wrote:
Dear All,

Happy New Year and apologies for not reporting back sooner. I wanted to investigate my gun stock situation thoroughly before coming back, especially since Rollin had given me such professional advice.

I took myself and my gun to a very reputable company of gunsmiths here in England. For your information they are called Ladbrook & Langton. Firstly the gun stocker asked me to mount the gun and point it straight at him. He said that I was sighting down the rib well. He then put the gun in a measuring jig to examine the cast. The heel has a left hand cast of 1mm which is a fraction under 1/16th of an inch, and the toe has a right hand cast of 2mm which is a fraction over 1/16th. He said that it is essentially a straight stock. Again he asked me to mount and remount and said I looked fine with it, to go away and not worry about it.

I forgot to ask him to check the pitch so I did it myself using a method I found on an American website called Bill Hanus Birdguns. I simply stood the gun upright on the floor ensuring the whole butt made contact and slid it against a wall until the action touched the wall. The muzzle pitched away from the wall about 2 1/2 inches, which according to the website is about right. The website says two to three inches down pitch is normal.

What do you think Ronnin.



Allow me to jump in here. If you mount the gun and move your head & body to look down the rib the gun does not fit you. Having someone tell you the gun fits you because you can move yourself around until you can see down the rib is BS. If he didn't charge you an arm and a leg for a fitting then he just wanted you to go away, IMHO. A gun has to come up and be in the correct position naturally. You can get away with moving your body if you are doing high mounts for trap/skeet. But in the field the gun has to fit or you will miss birds or beat the heck out your face. Try closing your eyes and mount the gun as if to shoot at a bird. When the gun is in the shooting position, do NOT move your body or head after this point, open your eyes. Are you looking down the rib? If not, then the gun does not fit you. Try a few times to see if you are having problems mounting the gun too. If the sight path is off then you then need to decide can the existing stock be bent/shaped to fit you or do you need a new piece of wood or other modifications.



_________________
Don

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: amckay, Baron23, barrelslime, Big Al D, bigalt, Bing [Bot], Bobcat Welding, bojo, Cerberus, cheecho1960, claysmoker, Curly-Nohair, Droff, Exudate, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, hamernhonkers, hdjno83, ILLINOIS, Impact-Shooter, jdwaddle, leadme, linkstate, lost_pair, lowgun, Lowscore, mactownbob, maierar, maltzahn, Mike Noel, Mismost, nicklas37, olddog45, Oldman1949, oletymer, oneounceload, pintailx, plannerman, rebelpenn, rickeroo, riflegunbuilder, robert146, Rypebryst, SaltyDawg88, seahorse06, smoke67, Snotrub, son of thurlo, StormRhydr, strut64, SuperXThree, templetk333, texnekkid, Tijeras_Slim, Tuflehundon, wisturkeyhunter, Woodsie131, Xftrplt, xsshooter, Yornoc3


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice