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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:25 pm 
Clays Expert
Clays Expert

Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Posts: 1612
Good to hear and thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 12:50 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 12:26 pm
Posts: 382
What a great thread!

Going to take the day off tomorrow, relax and try different methods. First, going to try with left hand shooting, UGH ! I am too old to change but will try because I'd really like to shoot without fixes. I got the left eye dom. really bad and as much as I love to shoot, really frustrated. My first club shoot was embarrassing but I'm not going to give up.

When I miss a target, I don't know what went wrong or what to do to correct it.

Well, here goes !


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 4:34 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 12:26 pm
Posts: 382
"The subconscious sees two ribs and two barrels every time and handles that mutiplicity just fine."




I thought I was the only one who saw two barrels. Just didn't want to admit it to anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 5:26 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 12:26 pm
Posts: 382
Update:

Went to the club today packed with a pair of orange (one side fully blocked), magic dots on a pair of purple tinted shooting glasses, a smoke dot on my prescription glasses, a millennium dot on my millennium shooting glasses and just about everything else I could think of. Oh ya, and my fully operational dominant left eye.

After taking 4 ibuprofen due to a dislocated shoulder from trying to shoot left handed, I proceeded to experiment with all the gadgets I brought, shooting at stations 1 & 5. I confirmed that most of my problems were with clays coming in from the left to the right. No matter what the presentation. It just seemed I was just lucky when I hit one from left to right and when I missed, had no clue what I did wrong.

After going through all the items in my bag, I sat down on the bench with some cold water to review what was going on. I made the conclusion that yes, I did a bit better but wondered if it was the helper stuff or simply because I was concentrating more on being a better shooter.

Then I remembered the utube video I have watched many times by Gil Ash from OSP. "Watch the bird, not the barrel". I thought I was doing that..........but was I really ?

So packing up all the extra stuff, I put on my normal sunglasses and put a box in my holder. To be honest, I was really tired of all the tricks and gimmicks. I even went so far as putting a piece of electrical tape over my fat glow tip to prevent barrel distraction.

Then, I set out, determined on a mission to do just that, LOOK AT THE BIRD.

I first went to the station to meet my nemesis of left to right - I hit it ! Then I hit it again. And again. and again. Thinking it was just a fluke or heatstroke, I pushed the double button. BAM, CRUSH. What the hell was going on, I was actually hitting clays. Oh, this was too good to be true. Being my lucky day or dreaming, I went to the rabbit station. Crush.

I still had difficulty with the long shots but today, I hit more than missed. A good day for me. And my confidence level rose just a bit from an all time low. I finally have a base in which to start. I thought it was hopeless.

Thanks Mr. Ash for sharing your expertise tips.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:25 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:20 pm
Posts: 2190
Location: Australia
I think a lot more is attributed to eye dominance issues than is the case.
When I started shooting skeet many yrs ago, I had no problems with the bbl image from my left eye. After about 10 yrs, I began to see the image from my left eye more acutely, to the point where it was confusing.
I've tried all the different dominance tests & I'm still right eye dominant but, I now notice more of the left eye input while shooting.
The problem that I have is typical of many long time shooters I have spoken to.
My problem manifests strictly with right to left crossing targets, never left to right.
I'm a righted handed shooter so, this makes perfect sense if I am focusing on the target, the bbl is dead in between my left eye & the target. This is most acute shooting low house station #4.
When other shooters have mentioned this same phenomenon to me, I have tested this with them using right to left & left to right crossers. In all cases so far, they say the problem exists only in one direction, depending on if they are right or left handed shooters.
My solution for the last 3 or 4 yrs has been very effective.
I have a black cable tie around the top bbl under the rib with, the lock tab block on the left side of the bbl & the tail of the tie up through the block. I then twist the tail of the tie 45 deg. Leave the tie a little loose until the correct position up or down the bbl is found which blocks the left eye from seeing the bbl bead when mounted normally.
Snip the tail of the tie off at the lowest effective height, about 3/16" &, you're good to go.
This is simple & effective & certainly worth a try.

Regards....................SoT

_________________
When I hear somebody sigh, "Life is hard," I am always tempted to ask, "compared to what?"

Sydney J. Harris


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:28 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:40 am
Posts: 226
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Son of thurlo,

You might want to check out Gil Ashe's 3 bullet video drill, I think it address your problem, which is common one for right handed shooter's on right to left crossers.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:48 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:21 am
Posts: 3505
Location: South Texas
This is one of those threads I revisit every time it pops back up!

I have an update to my first post a few years ago. I have always wanted to get back to two eyed shooting and would give it try every year after the World Skeet Shoot, in the off season. Never could make it work and I know part of the problem was between my ears! I knew what scores I could shoot with a dot, two eyed scores were always a disappointment.

Fast forward, about a year ago, I just got bored shooting skeet. I also opened up some more free time for my shooting and started shooting sporting clays. From day one in sporting, I took the patch off. I also completely changed my stance to a more upright position and shot some form of low gun on almost every target except very quick trap type birds. Churchill style.

Looking back on this journey, I think my results were similar to what I have experienced in skeet. However, I did not have any score history in sporting and the targets are much more varied. I just kept shooting and learning. I focused on the learning part (sustained lead does not work for all targets!), the mount, and the plan. Slowly, it started to come together.

in short, my my eyes do not seem to bother me.....IF I use them right. I know this is due to two things...1. low gun 2. looking at the target. Low gun, the gun does not block any vision until the last moment of the shot...it's like target focus, cheek, bang.

Yesterday, I was shot about 50 birds and missed 4...all 4 times I was trying to make the shot Look the same instead of looking at the target the same way. There is a difference! When I try to make the shot look the same way, that simply means I became aware of the barrel and most of the time I rode that target a little bit....whatever, it dilutes my target focus. If I look at the target the same way, it breaks.

I think my eye dominance problems are caused by 1. the gun in the way and 2. not looking at the target correctly...at least that is my experience. I am I cured of cross firing? I doubt it. Pretty sure it still happens, but in sporting it is just harder to tell AND I don't think about it when I do miss....I just go back to using my eyes.

Shot some skeet a few weeks ago. First round 14/25. Bad enough for me to dig around in my pouch and find an old dot! Put it on and shot 23/25, during that round I noticed my comb was dead flat. So I jacked it back up to my old skeet position and ran the next two boxes. I think the games we play and the shooting styles we use also have an impact on how our eyes work...or maybe it's how we work with our eyes!

All the above leads me right back to where I was several years ago....everybody is different, you have to find what works for you and then do that.

_________________
Grand Dad called me Mismost because I did. I don't anymore.
Good Shooting!


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:38 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:59 am
Posts: 76
Anthony,
I know this post is old but I have a question if you will.
I'm a average master class shooter that at times has the ability shoot pretty well and can run the wheels of the track at other times. I was recently shooting in a make or break comp and as normal shot my way into the the top 8 for the shoot offs. I tend to shoot the big targets extremely well. This was at a large shoot with some big names. I ended up in the finals with a big name shooter. Not to nervous as I had been here before, I set out to put the work in. I shot well and won.
It happens that my friend was capturing me on video through the match. After reviewing the video I noticed that on the close fast targets 1 thru 3, I was never really in the gun. At times my face never touched the gun. I was crushing these targets. On the longer targets that you needed time and precision I was in the gun correctly and move was fluid and looked mechanically correct.
This caused me to think about my train wrecks and make note at the end of a match. In summary when I'm focused and shooting and seeing targets well it doesn't seem to matter if I'm in the gun at all. When I'm in the opposite mode nothing is really clear and can't seem to sync my hands with the gun. I can get out of the gun and nearly shoot with a soft mount and work my way to a better score.
I have very good vision and when things are right I can slow the target down and see in definition. Rings, edges, even the rotation of the target. When it is wrong I just see a target in totality.
Is this a concentration issue or could I be fighting a dominance problems at times?


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:40 am 
Clays Expert
Clays Expert

Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Posts: 1612
It can be hard to determine. When you have a "train wreck" generally what type of target is this? Keeping your head off of the gun could be a sign of your brain creating a "fix" to an eye dominance.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:45 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:59 am
Posts: 76
Can't narrow it down to a target type generally speaking. More of a over all decline. I really took notice at local registered event a few months back. I was 5 or 6 stations in and straight. At the next station there was a straight forward flat trap target, trap was really close. Trap was sitting slightly to the right and in front of the box. The second target was long looping right to left at 45-50 yards. Second target showed plenty of belly in the transition. Missed the first target 3 times. Second target was not a problem. Broke target number one the last pair by picking a hold point slightly below the line and not really going to the gun. Struggled a little the rest of the round, but adjusted and got back in the groove.
I went back to this target the next day for practice. Didn't do well the first few pairs shooting slightly high and in front. This target left to right slightly mostly quartering. I found that if I shot this target with a soft mount and little to no cheek pressure I could break it easily. I broke this target 50 times in a row. Went on and practiced a few other stations. I then come back to this target for another box of shells. First few were breaks but felt a little rushed and out of control. I worked out away away from the trap and then back to the trap. I found that I needed to have the gun well right of the target line to have a good visual lock and a smooth move to the target. Broke the target 20 times in a row using this method.
What I notice at times is that everything feels right but I shoot in space completely off the line of target. When I notice this happening I make a slight adjustment in style more of a come to the gun and can straighten things up. (I prefer the connection and go with the target method that you teach.) I need very short move and visual lock out of the gun and I can make it work. The problem with this is if I miss there is no visual reference and I have no clue. I always just work back to the target and hope it works.
I understand this is likely a very unfair question and not looking for a definitive answer. Just interested in your general input. Likely time to see you for a session. I'm in the Midwest so it is a long trip for me.
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:19 am 
Clays Expert
Clays Expert

Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Posts: 1612
Work on a soft focus until you connect with the bird so you can practice understanding where the gun is. Everything that you describe sounds like a lack of muzzle awareness. Think of working on "knowing where you are" then really looking hard at the bird. The bird should not be 100% clear as you are trying to connect as you must know where the gun is. Some slight eye dominace issues can be solved by working to know where you are then really seeing the bird clearly. In other words soft focus first. On quartering don't really look back for the targets only use your peripheral vision. Let me know if this makes sense??


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:49 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am
Posts: 2139
The two bullet drill. Right handed shooter.

Place two objects in a book shelf about 15" apart and with an unloaded gun look at the left object and mount the gun on the right object which is the sight picture on a left to right target (eyes to the left of the barrel). Now look at the right object and mount on the left object which would be the sight picture on a right to left target (eyes across the barrel. Repeat until the confusion goes away. Your brain is having to combine two retinal images into one that are 32" in front of your nose while looking at a distant object 30 yards away. This very confusing in the beginning but if you will practice this drill 20 min a day for 21 days it will look clear and the eye problems will go away.

#OSPSchool #Krieghoff #RioAmunition #SkeeterBoats #Briley #Laporte #LongRange #EAR #ProEars #BestWingshooting #Mossberg930 #wolfRange

Try this drill for 21 days 10 minutes twice a day and you might be surprised at what comes of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:55 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:35 pm
Posts: 3396
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
I have put up quite a few posts on this thread always
looking at it from a bit different point of view. Recently
I started thinking about the problem this way, do you
see what you "want" to see? I wrote up this blurb that
incorporates some of this thought and with some training
tips that worked for me. Gil's drill he described above
may be using principles of training yourself to see
what you want to see.

Here it is, maybe this thinking can be used by some
of you and tried.
===================================
A lot of vision is concerned with what you
want to see. This is a concept that is not
apparent to most, but it is true. Many
experiments have proven this.

I will give you an example. A psychologist
did this experiment. He made a video of
of several people passing a ball around.

Then he told a group of people that he was
going to show them a video of passing a
ball, and he wanted them to watch it and
see if they could accomplish this, "tell
me how many times they passed and caught
the ball".

So he shows the video and then asks them,
how many times was it passed and caught?
Most of them say 15 times. He says that
is right, and then he asks them, how
many of you saw the gorilla? Only half
of them say they saw it. The other half
say "there was no gorilla". So he
shows them the video again, and sure
enough a guy in a gorilla suit walks
onto the scene while the group passes
the ball, and not just at the side,
he walks right into the middle of it and
then walks off. People looking for the
ball focus in on ball, and see nothing else.
There is just not the perception of anything
else.

Very little of your retina is high resolution.
only the very central part of the retina is
high resolution fovea. That is where you see
the fine detail, and you miss most everything
else. And this is just the first part of vision
seeing the central part. From there your brain
has to look for whatever it is that you "want"
to see.

I believe that you need to train your vision if
you want to see the things needed for exceptional
shooting/aiming. The training that I think is
most effective is with a BB gun.

I set one up like this. I cut off the rear sight
of a Kid's Daisy air rifle, and about half of the
front site. Now to train with it. In an open
area, like looking at a tree, with lots of leaves
is good. 25-40 yards off you can see the tree
and the leaves. Looking straight at it, it is
a dark area, that is what you want. If you look
at something in an open area like a fence post,
then the light of the sky will overwhelm your
vision, too much light all you see is brightness.

So looking at the dark tree, with gun in ready
position, look at one individual leaf. That is
the center of your vision, you see the leaf well,
you will also see the barrel of the gun, along
with the leaf, that is your sight picture. That
is what you WANT to see. You will see what you
WANT to see, not just the leaf, but also the
barrel with it, the total sight picture. You
want to see it ALL. You train your brain to see
it all, not just the leaf (target) but all.
Now you shoot at the leaf. You watch the BB in
flight. Yes, you can see it, because it is
bright and shiny, against that dark tree. You
also see the leaf and the barrel, the complete
sight picture. You watch the BB go right into
the target or left or right, next to it, but you
are perceiving it all, leaf, barrel, and BB.

You do this hundreds of times, over and over, for
days. After you have done this for days on end
you have trained your vision in what you are WANTING
to see, and you see it, time after time. You
see/perceive the whole thing, target and gun
barrel/sight together. This is what you want to
see, target and barrel in relation to each other.

You don't even have to be using your master eye.
You can start out on purpose doing this with
gun under the non master eye. Makes no difference,
your vision will be trained to see what you are
training it to see.

Once it is trained in on one side, you can switch,
and surprise, you can train that side too, and
also surprise, it will be easy, even though you
got use to the other side now.

So there it is, how to train your vision.

Once this training is done, you never have to think
about it. It becomes reflexive, instinctive, and
instant. You can shoot from either side without a
thought, at least in so far as your vision is concerned.
At least, I was able to.

Tip on the BB gun:

The gun may shoot high or low, your correction
for this is how much barrel you have to see in
order to make the point of aim agree with point
of impact.

If the gun shoots left or right, you have to rotate
the gun clockwise or counter clockwise to bring the
poi and poa together. Like if gun is shooting slightly
left, you have to rotate it slightly right to compensate.
Once you know how to hold it, then it shoots to where
you look.

You can take this as far as you want to take it.
The key to learning is gradualism. Start out
easy and progress to harder more complex.

Take a large object, like a volley ball, throw
it up and then mount and shoot BB gun at it.
You can do it almost immediately. Next use
a smaller target, a softball, next maybe
a tennis ball, next a golf ball, you can
go down to aspirin if you want. What is
more you can do it with either hand, and
with both eyes open. It is all training of
seeing what you wanted to see and working
toward it.

Safety tip - always wear glasses doing the
BB gun training those steel BBs can really
bounce back.
================================

_________________
To cut down on gun violence, make stabbing, beating, and choking legal.
That should cut it WAY down.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:05 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:07 am
Posts: 17
One of the best threads I’ve read. I’m new to shooting clays (sporting). I’ve shot rifles for over 30 years right handed but I’m left eye dominant. This subject has been doing my head in. When I started shotgunning I was shooting around 50%. I was fairly happy with that. Now after 1250 rounds I’ve dropped to a very poor 30% of target hits. I think a lot of this is due to being left eye dominant and watching too many YouTube videos on the subject and George Digweeds coaching DVD. All of these seem to confuse me more. Before this I’d just go out and pull the trigger. This thread has given me lots to think about. I really don’t want to use a blinder of any sort. I think after reading this thread there are no absolute fixes. I’d really like to know more about the method Coach super X uses to teach. Sound like I’d like to try his method first. Anyone know if he has a book or DVD on this?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:28 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:07 am
Posts: 17
Ok. After reading a lot more posts since joining I can see why I never got a reply by mentioning Coach super X.

The reason I was interested in his method was his ‘apparent’ teaching method not using a blinder for a cross dominant shooter.

So, if I can rephrase in another way. Are there any right handed shooters on here that are left eye dominant who are very good shots without the use of a blinder any sort? If so, can you explain your shooting method/technique for dealing with being cross dominant.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:54 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:40 pm
Posts: 112
Chiro wrote:
Ok. After reading a lot more posts since joining I can see why I never got a reply by mentioning Coach super X.

The reason I was interested in his method was his ‘apparent’ teaching method not using a blinder for a cross dominant shooter.

So, if I can rephrase in another way. Are there any right handed shooters on here that are left eye dominant who are very good shots without the use of a blinder any sort? If so, can you explain your shooting method/technique for dealing with being cross dominant.

Thanks.


I don't know much about anything, but I am a left eye dominant shooter (probably not strong left eye dominant) that is right handed. I found my biggest problem was when I had a high viz type bead on the end - which would regularly mess up my eyes. I placed a small white bead just to be able to check gun fit every once in awhile.

Id check your gun fit to make sure your trigger-hand eye is above the rib a little (ie, not below 50/50, check this video out if it helps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrVLWa3TI9w).

Secondly, your eyes are good enough to get you through your daily activities. Theoretically your eyes shouldn't give you too much of a problem since a shooter is supposed to look at the clay and not at the barrel of the gun, though I've had some problems with that in the past. The more I shoot the more I have been comfortable shooting cross dominant.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:17 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:07 am
Posts: 17
zxcvbnm wrote:
Chiro wrote:
Ok. After reading a lot more posts since joining I can see why I never got a reply by mentioning Coach super X.

The reason I was interested in his method was his ‘apparent’ teaching method not using a blinder for a cross dominant shooter.

So, if I can rephrase in another way. Are there any right handed shooters on here that are left eye dominant who are very good shots without the use of a blinder any sort? If so, can you explain your shooting method/technique for dealing with being cross dominant.

Thanks.


I don't know much about anything, but I am a left eye dominant shooter (probably not strong left eye dominant) that is right handed. I found my biggest problem was when I had a high viz type bead on the end - which would regularly mess up my eyes. I placed a small white bead just to be able to check gun fit every once in awhile.

Id check your gun fit to make sure your trigger-hand eye is above the rib a little (ie, not below 50/50, check this video out if it helps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrVLWa3TI9w).

Secondly, your eyes are good enough to get you through your daily activities. Theoretically your eyes shouldn't give you too much of a problem since a shooter is supposed to look at the clay and not at the barrel of the gun, though I've had some problems with that in the past. The more I shoot the more I have been comfortable shooting cross dominant.



Thanks for the reply. My gun fit isn’t perfect. When I look down the rib my eye is lined up well and a little above the rib, however the length of pull is too long and I think the pitch isn’t quite right as it often gives my cheek bone a touch up. I’m hoping to get the gun fitted by a pro within 4-6 weeks. I’m hoping this will make an improvement to my shooting.

I installed an extra hit sight mainly to practice my gun mount. 9 times out of 10 when I shoot I don’t recall seeing the fron sight. Occasionally I see the bright bead in my peripheral vision.


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