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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:36 pm 
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Quote:
Eye dominance and handedness are functions of the Brain.
Joe

Could you go into some more detail? Why is eye dominance
a function of the brain? What is your reason for saying this?
How about handedness? Why do you say that is a function
of the brain?

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That should cut it WAY down.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:40 am 
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DevilsAdvocate wrote:
Quote:
Eye dominance and handedness are functions of the Brain.
Joe

Could you go into some more detail? Why is eye dominance
a function of the brain? What is your reason for saying this?
How about handedness? Why do you say that is a function
of the brain?


With out getting too long winded and creating carpel tunnel in my typing hands. I'm going to be a bit simplistic and be speaking in generalities. WHEN IT COMES TO THIS AREA THEIR ARE NO ABSOLUTES! Get that into your mind or stop reading.

The eyes are like cameras and on their own provide no information to us. liken this to a video camera with out a projection screen or monitor you can't se what the camera has seen. Visual information in the form of sensory input come through the eyes. Amazingly approximately 80% of all our sensory input is from the eyes. The remaining 20% comes from the remaining senses Touch, Hearing, Taste, and Smell.

Now I want you to think of this as a movie screen in the back of our heads. The complete image with almost perfect detail is there across the complete screen however we can only be completely conscious of a small portion of the screen due to a filtering process which allows us to focus on information that the brain deems necessary. This happens both on a conscious and unconscious level. The unconscious part can absorb much more information and use it faster than the conscious parts. If we were consciously aware of everything at once we couldn't handle it. Similar conditions exist in some Autistic savants.

Next is the architecture of the brain in to two parts the left and right Hemispheres. Most of us are said to be either right or left brained. Laterality is the term that best describes this condition. A left brained person is probably right handed and to a lesser percent of certainty most left brained individuals are right eyed. Both right handed and right eyed or left handed and left eyed are considered balanced laterality and are the most efficient condition of neurological organization.

When an imbalance occurs people have ascribed the term cross dominate to the eyes or vision. Really it is a neurological imbalance or incorrectly developed pathways.

Good news the brain is plastic. This means it has the ability to learn improve or even change the conditions to better help us.

The reasons that dominance occur are too many to mention but here are the two major ones. Traumatic injury to either the brain or the eye. Second and what I deal almost exclusively is what I call Image Acceptance. The eyes project two images to the brain. The brain wants perfection so it naturally chooses the brightest and best image from which ever eye it comes from and elevates it to the more important image for visual processing.

Retraining can be done with positive results for many. The ways to and magnitude of change is limitless. I will caution that if not done properly their can be some negative effects to the individual that may or may not manifest themselves in other parts of their everyday lives.

Well my typing hands are working and even this attempt at simplifying things has become a bit long winded.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Thanks, Joe. Very interesting stuff. Could you recommend some
good reading for me to get into this deeper? Like I said, this is
very interesting to me.

Some things that really peak my interest:
Quote:
Most of us are said to be either right or left brained.

I wonder about this. How do we know if a person is
right brained or left brained? Do we actually have
pictures of their brain waves and can tell from that?

Next, so some are left brained and some are right
brained. Why would that make any difference. My
intuitive idea is that one side is in control, and the
other side is assisting. Of course this could be
wrong to begin with, but why would it make any
difference which side was "in control"?

One thing that seems logical to me is that if one
side is in control, it might affect which hand you
prefer to use, since each hand is only connected
to one side of the brain. Are all right brained
people left handed and vice-versa?

I notice young children don't seem to have a
preference for which hand they use. Is that
correct, or am I wrong?

That is enough questions for now.

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To cut down on gun violence, make stabbing, beating, and choking legal.
That should cut it WAY down.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:57 pm 
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DevilsAdvocate- You have a good insight. Young children in many instances do not develop laterality till about 5-7 years old. I think a lot of this is due to language processing along with the development and strengthening of neural pathways.

No. A Hemispherical preference for lack of a more eloquent term presently does not equate to any certainty in handedness. Usually left brain right handed, right brain left handed. This would be the correct neurologic architecture but there are many instances of exceptions that disprove these rules.

To better explain this goes outside of the shooting world. Some understanding of motor neurons is needed. Simply put the brain is a processing system that seeks to accept the best signal possible in both input and output of sensory function. Since the neurological pathways are strengthened through use eventually there is a more or better traveled rout with less resistance chosen. This in my less than eloquent explanation is the foundation of all laterality or side preference in either motor function or visual perception and visual image acceptance.

Please keep in mind that the correct and proper vocabulary to explain the functions has yet to be created. Current scientific information mostly from the progress of neurology and concurrently a relatively new field of Optometric Rehabilitation give us the best indications of what is going on. Much of it is contradictory to commonly held belief systems that have been used to describe vision over the last 100 years. Translating this to a sports or shooting application is not simple cut and paste.

I'm currently working on a book to better explain these processes. Of course every time i think I have this conquered I end up with new and important data.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:45 pm 
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I hope to read your book, if you get it done. I found it interesting
that you say:
Quote:
Usually left brain right handed, right brain left handed. This would be the correct neurologic architecture but there are many instances of exceptions that disprove these rules.

The reason I find that interesting is that I have done a lot
of experimenting with hand use, and in my opinion I can
see very little difference in a persons ability to use either
hand. There is only one thing that I have noted a difference
in when it comes to hand use and it is really not earth shaking.
I am right handed, and also stronger with my right arm than my
left. Since at about age 6 starting in school I started favoring
my right arm. I wrote with it, and I played baseball, basket ball,
etc. with it. I was in situation once where about the only
diversion I had was playing catch with a baseball. That became
boring so I switched gloves and tried to throw left handed and
catch right handed. I did that for about a month, and became
pretty good playing left handed, but since I was near 25 years
old at the time, I never did develop the strength in the left hand
that I had in the right. I could still throw a lot harder right
handed. My son broke his left arm at about the 4th grade level
and he was left handed. He was already able to play baseball
both left and right handed at that point. He was naturally
left handed, but when he started baseball, he played right
handed because the glove he borrowed was for right handed
players. I did not notice he was playing with the right hand
until he had done it a few days. By then he was developing
pretty good skill with the right hand. Since he had chosen
to use the "wrong hand" on his own, I did not discourage it,
but I bought him a left hander's glove and when we practiced
throwing we would switch gloves about every 25 throws.
He was able to develop just as well right handed as left
handed. In games he played left handed, but in practice
he used either, with no loss of ability. When he broke his
left arm, that one atrophied for a few months while he was
healing. After he was mended, he could throw harder right
handed than left handed. To this day, I suspect he can throw
harder right handed than left handed. He also learned to
write right handed while his left was in a cast. He turned out
pretty ambidextrous.

There was a time that I coached little league, and the best
player on the team could play with either hand. He played
pitcher and catcher. When he pitched, he threw left handed,
and he threw RIGHT handed when he played catcher. He
threw better with either hand than the other players could
do with their best one. Also a friend told me of seeing a
baseball pitcher that pitched with both hands. I believe he
was at the college level, but am not sure of that. He
would pitch an entire game right handed, and the next
game he would pitch entirely left handed. When someone
can develop the skill level needed to compete at that level
it says quite a bit, I think. I am pretty sure that this
means that practice is probably the most important thing
when developing and strengthening of neural pathways.

The only thing I have noticed that sometimes give me
trouble shooting with the left hand is the trigger control.
At times the gun does not go off when I want it to. This
is an isolated thing, but does happen. Usually it goes off
before I want to pull the trigger. Maybe I just don't have
the sensitivity to know how much pressure I am putting on
the trigger. It is a puzzling thing.

I have been a long distance runner for about 45 years, and
I lived in Indiana a couple years ago. The weather was often
too bad to run outside, so I started going to the gym to work
out. I preferred to run, to doing treadmills, so I went to the
basketball court, and to keep from getting bored running the
perimeter of the court, I got a basketball and ran and shot.
I had to run down each rebound, so there was plenty of
running. I stayed in constant motion while running and
shooting. Then it occurred to me, that I might as well shoot
left handed since I was not really trying to improve my
shooting. So I did. The first day, I don't think I made
more than a couple shots, but day after day, I improved.
By the end of about one month, I was actually shooting
better left handed than I was right handed. I have kept
that up, now living in Las Vegas I go to the gym just about
daily, and continue this running and shooting. I use
both hands now, pretty much dividing it up, but the
strange thing is that I shoot more accurate left handed
than right handed.

All these experiences tell me, that people put way to much
emphasis on which hand to use. I really believe you should
learn to use them both right from the beginning.

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To cut down on gun violence, make stabbing, beating, and choking legal.
That should cut it WAY down.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Actually the difference in using The proper handedness has been well documented. In previous generations Nuns at Catholic schools forced right handedness on all who attended. There is well documented information indicating that this was truly detrimental to many.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Quote:
Actually the difference in using The proper handedness has been well documented. In previous generations Nuns at Catholic schools forced right handedness on all who attended. There is well documented information indicating that this was truly detrimental to many.

I have heard of this, and always accepted it, as well. However all
my personal experience has shown it to be wrong. I am always
leery of any argument, that says, "it is well documented", but
yet gives no documentation.

I did an internet search on it and could come up with no real
documentation. There were some stories of people who
said being forced to use their right hand had ruined their
lives, but also I came across stories that some thought it
had helped them like this one:
Quote:
I was forced from left to right. I found it a good thing. Over the years I've been able to do a lot of things left-handed and right-handed quite easily. It helped in basketball. It helped in baseball. It helped in piano, and guitar. I can't speak with any authority about psychological problems but the ambidexterity is cool.
posted by lpsguy at 12:32 PM on June 17, 2009


One I came across was that Einstein
was left handed but wrote right handed. It is a bit hard
to believe it really slowed him down any.

Another thing I came upon was people that were
forced to change hands might have trouble wetting
the bed. This one did not have any proof, but was
put forth as a possibility. I had one child that wet
the bed pretty late in childhood, but it was not the
one that learned to use both hands.

I also heard that it might cause speech problems,
but came across this:
Quote:
Can a child begin to stutter if he was originally left-handed and is forced to become right-handed?

Once again this is an outdated view. Many children have been forced to become right-handed without beginning to stutter as a result. If a left-handed child does stutter after becoming right-handed, it may be because the additional stress caused by the change has activated an inherited tendency to stutter.

link: http://copingwithstuttering.blogspot.co ... 2/faq.html

So I got to say, if this is well documented, then they
are doing pretty well at hiding the actual documentation
of it, even though I find many professing it to be true.

Could you point me to the documentation? I am very
curious to see it.

This very thread was inspired by me because it has been
universally accepted that a person has to use the shotgun
a certain way, because of his eye dominance. This is/was
accepted by all the experts, yet in fact it is proven not to
be true. I gave my personal reasons for that and I heard
from some others as well. One of them was a Brit, that
told of the British marines and how they change their
peoples dominance, when they train them, if they start
out left eyed. Yet the experts say you can't do it.

So that is why I really have to see documentation before
accepting a lot things that known to be "general knowledge".

_________________
To cut down on gun violence, make stabbing, beating, and choking legal.
That should cut it WAY down.


Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Another observation I made was this.
Quote:
This left frontal lobe brain area (Broca's area) is an important speech production region.


If speech is in the left brain which controls the right hand,
then why aren't left handed people using the other side
for speech. If the brain is truly wired to make a person
left handed or right handed, I wonder what that wiring is.

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To cut down on gun violence, make stabbing, beating, and choking legal.
That should cut it WAY down.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Laterality or neurologic wiring for a left handed person with properly devoloped laterality will be the mirror image of the right handed person.

Your personal observations are just that and apply to you not the general population.

I too have quite a bit of flexibility in these areas. In reality I feel for myself I have devoloped secondary skill sets to accomidate different shooting situations. It is strongly my oppinion that when this is done some area of neurologic efficency may and probably is lost.
Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:31 pm 
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deadbird995 wrote:
First you need to know the degree to which your left eye is dominate. To do this experiment pointing you right finger with both eyes open at objects a various distances from 5 yards to 30 yards. Once you are touching the object close your left eye and note the shift of your finger.. The re-point and close the right eye..again document shift.. Do this same process with the left hand and note degrees of shift of your finger... This will help you determine degree of dominance issue.... If you are trying to shoot right handed with two eyes and there is significant shift when you close the left eye it may be hard to ever accomplish without using a dot....

So the decision of dot or not dot needs to be made case by case based on degree of influence from the opposite eye....

Even though it can be accomplished if there is a substantial dominance issue it will be difficult to shoot with two eyes un-obstructed due to the fact that it prohibits you from being able to know the relative position of the gun from the bird. Even though you want to see the clay as soon as you have any sense of the muzzle with an eye dominance issue your perception will not be correct. Your ability to have control with the clay would be limited.. You would need to have great cordination, shoot a lot, and stay out of the gun as much as possible to ever learn two eyes with a significant eye dominance issue... The learning curve maybe very long

The advantage to the dot is that your perception will always be correct and you will gain the ability to have some sense of bird barrel relationship. Even though most top shooters do not see the gun when they fire, they still know where it is and try to connect it with the clay at some point in relation to the barrel... The dot will allow you to accomplish this aspect.. In other words the dot may help your learn control, technique and the ability to get the gun and the bird in sync together...

If I determine one needs a dot to advance it should be in the center of the eye and as small as possible, while actually accomplishing it intent.. You can make one out of fogged scotch tape.... The size of a dime is a good starting size.... You need to keep it on for 1,000+ rounds before you can say it has or has not helped.....


If you could ever learn two eyes with no dot your long run potential would be higher than with the dot, but it is a question of many factors to know it will ever click for you... I would say most people with a significant dominance issue will see an improvement with the dot because it makes perception reality allowing one to improve technique control with the clay...

Easy way to think of it... If your goal is to some day shoot 80-90% the dot is great option, if you goal is to someday consistently shoot 90-95% then give it more time to try to use two eyes unobstructed.....



Great topic... very complex....


Extremely well done post, Anthony. I hope the readers here take the time to digest it, and spend more time listening than talking.

I started shooting sporting clays in 1985, and thought I was totally left eye dominant and was shooting right handed, so I closed my left eye. By 1992, I had become reasonably competitve, but realized in order to get better, I would need to keep both eyes open.

I took a lesson from A.J. "Smoker" Smith, and he suggested that I go see Chuck Dryke up in Washington State. He said Chuck was his personal instructor (he was still living in England at the time, and had just won the World FITASC), and had the best knowledge base for dealing with eye problems.

I went and spent 3 days with Chuck, and his eye doctor friend Wayne Martin. Making a long story short, they diagnosed me as having a weak dominant right master eye, and not a dominant left one. My right eye was dominant, but weakly so -- about 72%. This meant that my left eye would take targets, especially those from the left side, and especially those from the left side that were below or high.

I spent over 4 years working with Chuck to get to the point my right eye was strongly dominant. It all started with what you said -- finding out the degree of dominance.

Your points about the "dot" are spot on. Exactly what Chuck worked on with me, for the very same reasons. I really like the point about if you really want to be good, that you have to learn to graduate away from it in time, and shoot with the full component of both eyes open. The dot is a great tool to get someone there.

I hope people with eye problems listen to what you have to say, because I for one can tell you that this system is what it takes to fix the problem. So often, people with eye dominance problems never get the issue solved because they never have the diagnosis correct.

Good for you on understanding this issue, Anthony. People, listen up to what he has to say. He's got it right.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Thanks...


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Dominance is neurolocical, proving it conclusively is not easy.........even for an expert. As Sera says on another post, some shooters get better results by occluding an eye. I regularly get clients that have been told by their coach "keep trying, you'll get it eventually." Of course three years later and broke with paying for all the lessons, they never do and play golf instead. I have an article about this written by a prominant optrometrist and an authority on the subject. I will be more than happy to e mail it to interested parties. It cuts through all the bull and gives you the facts. And as I say it was written by an EXPERT. Not an Internet expert. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Anthony. Great post! Its refreshing to see a post from someone who knows what thay are talking about rather than all the usual rubbish. {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:30 pm 
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Thanks Pete...


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Quote:
Dominance is neurolocical, proving it conclusively is not easy.........even for an expert.


If it is neurological, there must be some proof of that, yet
I have never seen any and apparently you have not either,
since you assert proving it is not easy. Better yet, proving
it has never been done, has it? Sounds like the typical
smoke and mirrors when people cannot really make the
point.

Going even further, what does it actually mean, that dominance
is neurolocical? Neurological maybe. Even if neurological,
what does that mean. It is very easy to throw in a big
scientific word, even easier if you can't spell it, but pray
tell, what does it mean if dominance is neurological?

Going even further on this, who is an expert? This field
has been delved into so little, I don't believe there are
any experts, unless they are just self proclaimed to
be expert. This whole idea of brain function is just
beginning to be explored and vision is a brain function.
For the most part there is far more not known, than
what is known.

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To cut down on gun violence, make stabbing, beating, and choking legal.
That should cut it WAY down.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:19 am 
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Quote:
Your points about the "dot" are spot on. Exactly what Chuck worked on with me, for the very same reasons. I really like the point about if you really want to be good, that you have to learn to graduate away from it in time, and shoot with the full component of both eyes open. The dot is a great tool to get someone there.


No it isn't! It is nothing but time-wasting detour you did not need to take. Oh yes, and a nifty way for professional instructors to fleece you out of money for 4 years.

No optometrist is an "expert" on eye dominance because it is irrelevant to anything else in the world other than shooting. They neither study it nor concern themselves with it. There are no meaningful studies and no literature to speak of, because no one cares.

Until they take up shooting clays and experience THE PROBLEM.

The solution is not to patch your off eye, it is to quit trying to see the barrel to the target. Easier said than done, though, once you have acquired that rotten habit. That is why it is so important to get very good instruction in the beginning, when the habits are being formed.

Take any number of beginners and teach them to shoot the correct way and not a single one will have any "eye dominance" problem. One eye may be "dominant" but it is irrelevant to their shooting. The subconscious sees two ribs and two barrels every time and handles that mutiplicity just fine. It easily learns to use the more useful image and ignore the other. It is the far less nimble conscious mind that cannot handle having more than one image to pick from.

Solution? Keep the barrel images in the subconscious, where they belong, and your conscious mind on reading exactly what the target is doing, and nothing else.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:25 am 
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Coach Super-X: I agree with you 100% that everything should be done/tried to work on shooting with two eyes. And I agreed that when you see only the target eye dominances goes away. However, learning technique and mechanics takes some awareness of the gun and as a result eye dominance is a problem as it prevents us from being able to learn "control" of the gun and technique. In purely instinctive shooting and only trusting the eyes the dominance does go away. But learning technique/control requires some awareness of the gun and dominance issues prevent this. Keep in mind to me it all depends on the degree of dominance.

Quote:
Take any number of beginners and teach them to shoot the correct way and not a single one will have any "eye dominance" problem. One eye may be "dominant" but it is irrelevant to their shooting.


While we both have the same thoughts on shooting with two eyes, I can't agree with your above comment. I do agree with you that many people/coaches are too fast to shut or patch an eye.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:51 pm 
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Well, I just don't have any need to ever have them consciously see where the gun is to improve as rapidly as I think they are capable of so I just don't see any reason to flirt with that Siren. In fact, I'd say that almost ALL of them try to kiss that wicked, wicked Siren sooner or later (most sooner) during their developmental stage so that eternal vigilance (and handy rope! :lol: ) is necessary to prevent their demise.

My experience is that it isn't so much "degree of dominance" as it is "degree of being a measurer." Give me a rank (or near) beginner and somehow it just magically never becomes an issue. Give me a guy who has tried to perfect measuring for 10 years and it is very difficult to get them successfully shooting with two eyes. I can see how you might want to just declare them "strongly cross-dominant" and give in, unless they are really, really committed to changing. Even when so committed, they are still going to have a very difficult time.

Are you shooting the selection next month? I hope so, as you certainly did well last year. If so, best of luck to you, Anthony.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Yes, I will be shooting the spring match. I have a busy spring coming up to say the least.

I would say in bunker eye dominance would be much easier to over come than in sporting. The case being the speed of the target is more of a constant than sporting. Also the game is much more instinctive in nature and I see the gun much much less in trap.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Dominance....Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:00 pm 
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deadbird995 wrote:
Yes, I will be shooting the spring match. I have a busy spring coming up to say the least.

I would say in bunker eye dominance would be much easier to over come than in sporting. The case being the speed of the target is more of a constant than sporting. Also the game is much more instinctive in nature and I see the gun much much less in trap.


If you want to read a fascinating case study see my posts in viewtopic.php?f=31&t=404786 ("Is this eye dominance test correct?")about "M," a 12-yr. old girl who is strongly left eye dominant but shooting very well off her right shoulder (she is right-handed, of course) with neither eye closed or blocked in any way.

At first, on regular trap, skeet or 5-stand where she had time to notice the gun, she would cross-fire every shot. On a locked-down trap straight-away she would shoot 2 - 3 feet to the left of the bird every time. I finally got her to quit seeing the gun by putting her on bunker targets, where she almost immediately started shooting very well (15 - 18). The speed and accuracy with which she took hard-angle bunker targets right from the gitgo was stunning.

I then explained that she was left eye dominant, and she said, "Yeah, the eye doctor told me that -- he had me look in this box and the numbers moved away." I told her while noticing the gun would hurt the other kids, it would be disastrous for her, that the sight of the barrel would lie to her every time, and didn't she want to shoot everything as well as she does bunker anyway? She agreed and has worked diligently to keep from seeing the gun. That was 3 months ago and now she shoots every game well (for her # of rounds downrange). Her subconscious brain seems to now have no problem picking the correct image, even on slow 5-stand birds, because standing behind her I never see her cross-fire any more. What I see is a lot of targets getting center-punched!

We'll see where she goes, but I've been coaching kids many years and I've never seen one so young shoot so well at this number of rounds downrange. I remain pretty certain that eye dominance is irrelevant if the person gets the right coaching (and listens! :D ).

Congratulations on your fine shooting in the second 125 in AR this past weekend, Anthony. It looks like you finally got that game down. I plan to have M at the USAS Nationals next June to shoot and if so we will hopefully enjoy watching you shoot some.


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