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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:48 am 
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Let me ask this, Rollin...

You seem to center on smaller frame shooters in your post....what special considerations do tall shooters need to take into consideration when choosing a gun?

For example, I am 6'5''




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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:54 am 
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SteelerNation wrote:
Let me ask this, Rollin...

You seem to center on smaller frame shooters in your post....what special considerations do tall shooters need to take into consideration when choosing a gun?

For example, I am 6'5''


That is a fair question, Mike.

The reason it needed to be asked is due to an oversight on my part. This thread is a re-write of another thread that appears on "Women Shotgun Shooters." That thread is titled, "Why shotguns "fit" or do not fit women, girls and youths."

That thread deals primarily with smaller shooters and I failed to adequately include larger shooters in the re-write. I will rectify my error in the next few days.

Now, to address the challenge you mention, the main problem you face is due to your height, or, more directly, to the length of your neck as a result of your height. This requires you to mount your gun with most of the recoil pad above your collarbone, to lean your neck forward and lower your cheek to the comb, (or both).

As a result, you have to look "up" to see along the rib, which can cause eye fatigue and other visual problems.

The correction is more "drop at the heel" on your stock. This can be created by either a custom stock or with the installation of a "pad adjuster" such as the 100-Straight or the Jones. There are also other adjusters available, which other shooters prefer rather than the two I mentioned.

A Pad adjuster would allow you to lower the recoil pad about an inch and to also rotate the pad and/or to move it to the right or left. That, along with mounting your gun with about an inch of the recoil pad extending above your collarbone to reduce the amount the pad needs to be lowered or to promote an erect head and neck shooting posture would be very beneficial.

If you have a pad adjuster installed, the pitch on the stock should be changed to make sure it is right for you and to eliminate the need to rotate the recoil pad to put the toe of the pad in your armpit. This is often required when the pitch on the stock is wrong for a shooter's posture and/or his/her chest configuration.

Other considerations for a tall shooter involve the length of the stock, which is directly affected by the drop at the heel dimension of the stock. If it is inadequate, the shooter will need to lean his or her neck forward, which will require a longer LOP because the neck lean require additional stock length to keep the nose far enough behind the trigger-hand thumb to prevent the latter from mashing the former during recoil.

(Stock length is also significantly affected by the stance used by the shooter. If the gun is shot like a rifle with the shoulders nearly aligned with the direction of shots, a longer LOP will be needed and if the shooter rotated his stance no more than 45 degrees. Thirty degrees would be even better if it could be done without having to turn the head toward the stock too much.

EDIT: "Fit" describes how well or poorly a gun's stock dimensions allow a shooter to use a good "shooting form." Shooting form describes the "stance" or foot position used by a shooter when he shoots, which depends on the shooting discipline (trap, skeet, sporting clays/hunting) for which a gun will be used.

Shooting form involves the gun mount (where on the shoulder the gun makes contact) and the posture used by the shooter, especially that of the head and neck, in addition to the stance.

There are good and not-so-good shooting forms, which vary with the shooting discipline being shot. Form has a direct effect on the success the shooter will enjoy and how well the shooter improves with experience/practice.

The stock dimensions on a gun allow or fail to allow a good shooting form to be used. As an example, the comb (top surface of the stock) needs to be the right distance below the level of the rib to allow the shooter's eye to be at the right level relative to the rib with the gun mounted and the cheek making snug contact with the comb.

The length of the stock (length of pull or LOP) needs to allow an adequate distance between the nose the thumb.

As a general statement, most guns have about the same stock dimensions. One of the slight variations involves the distance of the comb below the rib. This possible problem is addressed by a comb that is adjustable in height and sideways movement.

Very few guns come with a pad adjuster or an adjustable LOP.

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Author of "Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition," which explains the interrelationships between shooting form, stock dimensions and a shooter's size and shape http://www.amazon.com/Stock-Fitters-Bible-Second-Edition/dp/1451570384


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:30 pm 
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Rollin:

Thanks!

I actually know exactly what you mean about the recoil pad! I have a Weatherby 82 I am planning to use until I can order and configure a gun more to my frame. I noticed that when I mount it, I have to place the recoil pad so high on my shoulder that the bottom of it spikes into my shoulder. Its the only way I can get a good sight down the length of the rib. Otherwise, I am sort of looking down on the rib and the front sight juts up unnaturally, in terms of aim.

Now, my father has an old shotgun from the 60's that I can mount, and it provides a comfortable fit to my frame, allowing for a more natural sight down the rib.

It would seem to me that, while not readily apparent to a novice like me, the stocks are designed different. I suppose that is the main reason why one needs to test the gun out first? Its hard to predict which stock from which manufacturer is going to be a more comfortable fit?

Thanks again for the insight you provide. This is really helping me to clear up a bunch of unanswered questions!

Best,

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:32 pm 
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SteelerNation wrote:
Rollin:

Thanks!

I actually know exactly what you mean about the recoil pad! I have a Weatherby 82 I am planning to use until I can order and configure a gun more to my frame. I noticed that when I mount it, I have to place the recoil pad so high on my shoulder that the bottom of it spikes into my shoulder. Its the only way I can get a good sight down the length of the rib. Otherwise, I am sort of looking down on the rib and the front sight juts up unnaturally, in terms of aim.

Mike,

Having to mount the gun that high on your shoulder will also invite "cheek slap." You will have excessive muzzle rise during recoil.


Now, my father has an old shotgun from the 60's that I can mount, and it provides a comfortable fit to my frame, allowing for a more natural sight down the rib.

It would seem to me that, while not readily apparent to a novice like me, the stocks are designed different. I suppose that is the main reason why one needs to test the gun out first? Its hard to predict which stock from which manufacturer is going to be a more comfortable fit?

Yes, stocks do differ. There are stocks with a pistol grip and others with a straight English style stock and others with a "Prince of Wales" grip which is a semi-pistol grip stock.

In this country, "field" stocks are very common. They are the stocks that have a flat but rising comb. Their only advantage is that they allow a shooter's cheek to be placed on a lower or higher part of the comb to better vertically align the eye with the rib.

In addition to field stocks, others have a comb that is parallel with the rib or nearly so. They are usually "Monte Carlo" styled stocks, which have what looks like a notch removed just in front of the recoil pad. This is done to provide a little additional "drop at the heel."

Again, though, the "drop at the heel" and the "drop at the comb" (distances of the comb and heel [top surface of the recoil pad or butt plate] are quite similar from one gun or stock style to another.


Thanks again for the insight you provide. This is really helping me to clear up a bunch of unanswered questions!

If you have more, feel free to ask.

Best,

Mike

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Author of "Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition," which explains the interrelationships between shooting form, stock dimensions and a shooter's size and shape http://www.amazon.com/Stock-Fitters-Bible-Second-Edition/dp/1451570384


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:39 pm 
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+ ___ (whatever number we're up to) on the accolades and the suggestion to make this a sticky!


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:03 pm 
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Rollin:

I do actually have one more important question I forgot to ask. Is there any correlation between a shooter's height and the 'optimum' length of the barrel? For example, do taller shooters typically do better with longer barrels?

I'm sure there is much more to it than this, but I wonder if being taller generally requires a shooter to buy a longer barrel....say buying a 30" over a 28" model?


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:15 pm 
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SteelerNation wrote:
Rollin:

I do actually have one more important question I forgot to ask. Is there any correlation between a shooter's height and the 'optimum' length of the barrel? For example, do taller shooters typically do better with longer barrels?

There is no correlation, or if there is, it would be so low as to be useless, like the length of the forearm to judge a shooter's correct stock length.

I'm sure there is much more to it than this, but I wonder if being taller generally requires a shooter to buy a longer barrel....say buying a 30" over a 28" model?


Longer barrels provide a little more weight forward if the manufacturer has not retained the balance point of their shorter barreled guns by using denser wood in the stock of the guns with longer barrels.

Personally I believe that longer barrels are better (up to a point), providing the shooter has the strength to swing them without strain.

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Author of "Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition," which explains the interrelationships between shooting form, stock dimensions and a shooter's size and shape http://www.amazon.com/Stock-Fitters-Bible-Second-Edition/dp/1451570384


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:56 am 
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Rollin Oswald wrote:
SteelerNation wrote:
Rollin:

I do actually have one more important question I forgot to ask. Is there any correlation between a shooter's height and the 'optimum' length of the barrel? For example, do taller shooters typically do better with longer barrels?

There is no correlation, or if there is, it would be so low as to be useless, like the length of the forearm to judge a shooter's correct stock length.

I'm sure there is much more to it than this, but I wonder if being taller generally requires a shooter to buy a longer barrel....say buying a 30" over a 28" model?


Longer barrels provide a little more weight forward if the manufacturer has not retained the balance point of their shorter barreled guns by using denser wood in the stock of the guns with longer barrels.

Personally I believe that longer barrels are better (up to a point), providing the shooter has the strength to swing them without strain.


Excellent. I thought the longer barrels felt better to me. In fact, I like the added weight a lot. The lighter models I've handled seem to swing to fast for me. I feel like I have better control with both added weight and length.

I suppose the extra barrel length may add somewhat to accuracy? LOL. Yea, I know accuracy and shotgun usually don't belong in the same sentence, but I'm just trying to project my knowledge about rifles somewhat.


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:37 am 
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In my opinion, "accuracy" definitely belongs with shooting shotguns. Swing accuracy is important when shooting at moving targets and longer barrel(s), with their slightly greater weight help smooth swings. They also provide a slightly longer sighting plane although this is a secondary benefit.

You could add weight by attaching a barrel weight to your gun, There are several different models available. It may attach to the forearm of your gun or more likely, it would attach to the barrel.

The last one I remember reading about was brass and clamped to the barrel just in front of the forearm (or farther toward the muzzle if a greater effect was desired.

Your comment about shorter barrels swinging too fast is the reason that common skeet gun barrels are 30" or 32" today when they used to be 26." All shooting disciplines favor longer barrels today for the same reason.

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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:32 pm 
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Rollin a very good article . But in most articles I have read about gun fit there is plenty of information about length of pull, drop at comb, cast on and off and pitch but I have a problem with the way the recoil pad fits to my shoulder which I have not seen addressed. I have a bulky rounded chest and when the gun is mounted the full length of the recoil pad sits ok on my shoulder but only the inside 1/4 of the pad actually contacts my shoulder. I have tried shrugging my shoulder forward to offset it but as you get tired mounting becomes inconsistant and scores go out the window. How do you address this problem?


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:33 pm 
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bigjedd wrote:
Rollin a very good article . But in most articles I have read about gun fit there is plenty of information about length of pull, drop at comb, cast on and off and pitch but I have a problem with the way the recoil pad fits to my shoulder which I have not seen addressed. I have a bulky rounded chest and when the gun is mounted the full length of the recoil pad sits ok on my shoulder but only the inside 1/4 of the pad actually contacts my shoulder. I have tried shrugging my shoulder forward to offset it but as you get tired mounting becomes inconsistant and scores go out the window. How do you address this problem?


Jedd,

My first suspicion is that you shoot a shotgun using a rifle stance. By this I mean that you rotate your stance more than 45 degrees from the direction you are shooting - clockwise if you shoot right-handed. I also suspect that you mount you gun well inside of your shoulder joint, possibly to reduce the amount of cast you would need if you mounted it farther out.

If those suspicions are anywhere near correct, you will need to face targets more directly or mount your gun at the inside "edge" of your shoulder joint.

It might be possible to have your stock cut at an angle and the recoil pad re-installed, also at an angle to make better contact with your shoulder but I do not like that approach to the problem you described.

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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:32 am 
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Rollin Thanks for the reply. When I first started shooting clays I did use a rifle stance -comes from 40 years shooting hunting rifles. But as I progressed with some help from the club trainer I have been trying to change that stance . My usual approach is to point my left toes at the break point or slightly past break point with a line through my toes to the point of my right heel. I found my score improved. But now I have reach a stage where my scores have plateaued and I feel I need to do something about my gun fit. I have been shooting a Browning GP Sporter for the last 2 years. I went to a well known gun fitter down here in Australia ( unfortunately there isn't too many). After a few shots at a patterning plate he told me the gun was ok for drop at comb and cast but was too short and I was only mounting on part of the recoil pad and it was causing me to have an inconsistent mount mainly with eye alignment. It was his suggestion to fit a thicker recoil pad and do exactly what you said cut the stock on a slight angle. I am curious as to what the effect of doing this will have on the overall gun fit.
I am sure there must be a lot of shooters with similar problem.


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:23 am 
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Rollin,
Great information in the article, I. Have been enjoying clay shooting for about three years now and want to take it to the next level. I shoot mostly trap and have really been getting into sporting clays. I want to go to a fitter to check my mount and fit. Would love to see you as you seem to really know what you are talking about, but are too far away. Do you know of any good fitters on the NY Long Island area? My go to gun is a very adjustable CG Impact that I bought three months ago that I think fits pretty good, but do need to lower head to get to stock. I'm 6'0" tall with long neck. I am considering a pad adjuster/ recoil reducer combo, which brand do you recommend? I thought that raising the comb would have same effect, but then I see too much of the top of rib.
Thanks for the great info,
Ron


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:43 am 
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Azraz wrote:
Rollin,
Great information in the article, I. Have been enjoying clay shooting for about three years now and want to take it to the next level. I shoot mostly trap and have really been getting into sporting clays. I want to go to a fitter to check my mount and fit. Would love to see you as you seem to really know what you are talking about, but are too far away. Do you know of any good fitters on the NY Long Island area?
Hi, Ron;

No, unfortunately, I do not. I suggest you post a thread, possibly in the trap shooting forum asking for recommendations for a stock/gun fitter in Long Island. With luck, you will receive some names.


My go to gun is a very adjustable CG Impact that I bought three months ago that I think fits pretty good, but do need to lower head to get to stock. I'm 6'0" tall with long neck. I am considering a pad adjuster/ recoil reducer combo, which brand do you recommend? I thought that raising the comb would have same effect, but then I see too much of the top of rib.

I am not familiar with all the pad adjusters. That would be another good thread to create. Two that are often used are the Jones and the 100-Straight. Of those two, the 100-Straight seemed to be preferred.

I also remember that the Nelson pad adjuster - http://www.gunfitter.com has been praised and preferred over the 100-straight, although the Nelson is thicker and adds a little more length to the stock if it is not cut before installation of the adjuster.

With the installation of an adjuster if you have the stock shortened, as you probably know, it would be the perfect time to have the pitch corrected if it is necessary.


Thanks for the great info,
Ron


You are very welcome, Ron.

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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:00 am 
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Just an update on my gun fit episode. I went down and picked up my gun which has had a thicker recoil pad and the trigger moved further rearward, due to me having to reach for the trigger.
Whilst there we shot a few rounds at the pattern plate and the gun felt much better. The fitter said He hadn't changed the angle on the recoil pad because he thought it wasn't necessary. He explained how I was standing to far around from the target and the gun was pointing across my chest. He wanted me to try the gun with the thicker recoil pad and showed me how to adjust my stance to allow me to stand squarer to the target. He said to use it for a while and see how It went before making any further alterations
Last Sunday was the first time I got to shoot at some moving Targets at the local club. The result was scores around the same as previous but more consistent over the 100 targets. It took me the first round to adjust to the feel of the new settings on the gun and my new stance, but as the day went on I started to feel more at ease and into the gun. I am convinced now I have a gun that fits better my scores with practice will start to improve.
Thanks Rollin for the advice. Your thoughts have been vindicated by what the fitter did for me.


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:08 pm 
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Jed,

By shooting with a more square stance, you will find it easier to swing to extreme left targets without needing to arm swing the gun.

It will take a while to develop a consistent gun mount having changed your stance. Changes take time to get used to.

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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:43 am 
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Thanks Rollin that is what I am finding. I shot another 4 rounds of 25 today and All 4 rounds were the same score now just got to bring the average up. At least I am getting the consistency I wanted.


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:24 am 
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Hi guys, is there a difference in fit between the citori and the silver pigeon? If so how can I make my citori stock fit like a diver pigeon?

Logan


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:10 am 
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Great post will have to reread this at home when I have my gun handy to check (and recheck).


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 Post subject: Re: WHY SHOTGUNS "FIT" OR DO NOT FIT DIFFERENT SIZE SHOOTERS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:12 am 
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There are lots of different dimensions to a shotgun stock, even between the different versions of Browning Citoris and the different Berettas. LOP, pitch, cast, height and thickness of comb, parallel or sloping comb, etc. Stock fitters take all this into consideration, and a shotgun can be fit to you, only after you have developed a consistent gun mount. Mark



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