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 Post subject: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:26 am 
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There is a bill in the MD General Assembly this term to ban non-FFL Face to Face long gun transfers. This includes shotguns, meaning you will have to sell your hunting shotgun to your friend through an FFL with the appropriate fee.
http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmMa ... &ys=2017RS

No more FTF long gun transfer? Gimme a break.

Marylanders.Write or call your state representatives.

Ps: The way this is written, you will not be able to loan your shotgun to your friend for him or her to go hunting or clay shooting.

May also affect how clubs rent shotguns, like at PG and LRSTC.



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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:20 am 
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Sorry to hear that Maryland is going that way. I am in the process of looking for a weekend house on the Chesapeake Bay on the Maryland side.

We already have this in New York State under the Safe Act. The state did set a maximum transfer fee of $10.00 for in-state transfers that do not include any packing and shipping. Helps soften the blow.

I think if you carefully read the 1968 Gun Control Act, this was supposed to be something done all along but never enforced or taken seriously, except in New York State and a few others now. For the $10.00 the FFL does the back-ground check and runs it through his "Bound Book" with an appropriate 4473 Form. Personally I would rather than Proof Positive that a gun that I sold was in someone else's hands at a date and time rather than having it show up later in a crime and get traced back to me somehow. The only real risk I see here is when all the 4473s are called in by the ATF!

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:31 am 
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Quote:
rather than having it show up later in a crime and get traced back to me somehow.


So what if it did? If you sold it legally, it's no longer your problem. What about if you sell a pressure cooker, ax, chainsaw, gas can or anything else that someone could turn into a weapon? When does this insanity against law-abiding citizens stop?

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:17 pm 
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rkittine wrote:
Sorry to hear that Maryland is going that way. I am in the process of looking for a weekend house on the Chesapeake Bay on the Maryland side.

We already have this in New York State under the Safe Act. The state did set a maximum transfer fee of $10.00 for in-state transfers that do not include any packing and shipping. Helps soften the blow.

They only set this low number to help reduce objection to the new law. Once the law is in effect, it will be rather easy to justify increasing that to $20 or $30 or $50 or whatever!

I think if you carefully read the 1968 Gun Control Act, this was supposed to be something done all along but never enforced or taken seriously, except in New York State and a few others now. For the $10.00 the FFL does the back-ground check and runs it through his "Bound Book" with an appropriate 4473 Form. Personally I would rather than Proof Positive that a gun that I sold was in someone else's hands at a date and time rather than having it show up later in a crime and get traced back to me somehow. The only real risk I see here is when all the 4473s are called in by the ATF!

Here is a quote from the ATF website:

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulatio ... ontrol-act

Quote:
This Legislation regulated interstate and foreign commerce in firearms, including importation, "prohibited persons", and licensing provisions.


Thus, it means that what a state decides to do on transactions within the state is totally up to the state. If you can find language in the 68 GCA to the contrary, I'd appreciate it if you would show us where.


Bob

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:00 am 
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I believe this is the 4th year that the Safe Act is in effect. Don't get the wrong idea. I do not like it and am not looking forward to it in Maryland if it happens. After 4 years the fee is still $10.00 max. The state doesn't care what the fee cost is, they do not get the money, the dealer does. Those are the ones that care and why not all dealers will do it. They just refuse the transaction. The amount paid for the background check does not go to the state either.

Yes I can sell lots of things that could be used in a crime. Firearms in most cases are easier to track down and identify and if one that I once owned was used in a crime and traced back to me, I want to at least have some certified bill of sale showing when and to whom I sold it. Doen't have to be a dealer transfer receipt, a signed and dated bill of sale would satisfy me, but unfortunately not the State of New York. I protested the bill along with a lot of others, but 25,000 of us in a state that is on average so far left, didn't mean much.

I owned a gun shop for 16 years and had my FFL for 35 years. Over those years I had to respond to many requests for firearms traces, including who I sold Charter Arms Bull Dogs too. Guess who I sold one to? Along with a bunch of .44 Special Ammo.

Doctor David Berkowitz, by then deceased. What a major problem that unusual coincidence meant. His widow and I went through a tough time for a while until that got straightened out. Fortunately the gun was found on his sailboat which his widow still had. Appeared that he had it hidden there as they sailed all over the world and were concerned about piracy.

I still have all my required Bound Books and 4473s.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Another nice law against the people of Maryland. Like it's going to stop crime. Here in the sad granny state of Maryland They would like a total gun ban . Try to get a carry permit.

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:30 pm 
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At least in New York getting a carry permit is not a big problem if you don't mind waiting about 5 months. Not so for New York City though.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:39 pm 
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rkittine wrote:
Firearms in most cases are easier to track down and identify and if one that I once owned was used in a crime and traced back to me, I want to at least have some certified bill of sale showing when and to whom I sold it.

Bob


Wouldn't an alibi, which you would probably have, be just as good?

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:20 am 
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I am not a big fan of the word "Probably" especially in todays Day and Age. I am NOT in favor of either the New York State Safe Act or what they are proposing for Maryland, but when I lived in other states and if I end up buying another house in a state that allows Face to Face personal transfers, I will not sell any of my many guns without getting a signed and dated bill of sale from the buyer with that persons name and address etc. And regardless of whether I am selling a gun or not, it does not help our gun ownership cause when someone that truly should not have access to a gun is able to easily buy one and use it in a shooting that will get more national negative coverage then just about any other new.

From the 1968 Gun Control Act

It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person— (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; (2) is a fugitive from justice; (3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)); (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution; (5) who, being an alien— (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26))); (6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship; (8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that— (A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and (B) (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or (9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
From the 1968 Gun Control Act

The problem here is how would you know? Yep I know it says Knowingly but I Jeff st dont want the hassle. Just me.

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:49 am 
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There's nothing that says you can't get a signed receipt in a FTF sale even if you don't use an FFL to handle the transfer.

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Quote:
I still have all my required Bound Books and 4473s.


Do you still have your FFL?

Quote:
There's nothing that says you can't get a signed receipt in a FTF sale even if you don't use an FFL to handle the transfer.


There is no Federal legal requirement to do so, not at most state levels. Many folks prefer FTF to avoid government scrutiny into their private business. And in today's world, between government privacy invasion and folks stealing identities, I am not giving a stranger my personal info.

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:07 am 
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Lost in all of this is the fact that the prosecution has to prove that you are guilty of using a gun that was formerly yours. You do not have to prove you are innocent.

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:28 am 
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Some people do not seem to get that I am NOT in favor of the New York Law or the proposed Maryland Law. That being said, I still will not sell a gun, even if I move to a state that allows FTF sales without getting a signed bill of sale from the buyer.

The premise of innocent until proven guilty is fine, but very naïve in our litigious society. I was once sued by someone with no money, who was looking for some. I was innocent, found innocent, but spent Tens of thousands of dollars defending myself, which though I had recourse would have just spent more money to get nothing back.

Since I am considering a home in Maryland and since I disagree with the proposed law in any case, I have sent a letter of opposition to the Maryland Legislature. How about some other people put some energy into some advocacy in regard to this even if it does not directly effect you.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: MD GA bill to ban FTF long gun transfer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:34 am 
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People wanting money from you is a civil suit. The police trying to convict you of a crime on the basis of your having once owned the gun that was used in a crime is a criminal case.

It is going to be extremely difficult for them to convict you if you did not commit the crime. They have a lot more to prove than just ownership.

That is all I'm saying. I'm not trying to convince you to do anything different. That's your business, not mine.



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