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 Post subject: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:11 am 
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As the most popular 12 ga target shotshells become scarcer and scarcer, I notice that a less common choice still seems to be available at Bass and Cabelas. They do have a stock of Herter's 1,060 fps ammo in both #7.5 and 8 shot size and 1 and 1 1/8 oz shot weights. Prior to this I had never noticed such slow ammo. I know that it will provide lighter recoil than 1,145 fps and higher velocities, but is that the only reason it is offered? Is there any other reason besides that and the fact that it is still in circulation to use it? Or put another way, can I use it without much downside to my sporting clays game?

Al




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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:15 am 
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friend of a friend wrote:
I know that it will provide lighter recoil than 1,145 fps and higher velocities, but is that the only reason it is offered?


What else is there?

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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:41 am 
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Is it any less money ?


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:52 am 
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friend of a friend wrote:
As the most popular 12 ga target shotshells become scarcer and scarcer, I notice that a less common choice still seems to be available at Bass and Cabelas. They do have a stock of Herter's 1,060 fps ammo in both #7.5 and 8 shot size and 1 and 1 1/8 oz shot weights. Prior to this I had never noticed such slow ammo. I know that it will provide lighter recoil than 1,145 fps and higher velocities, but is that the only reason it is offered? Is there any other reason besides that and the fact that it is still in circulation to use it? Or put another way, can I use it without much downside to my sporting clays game?

Al


Lower velocity should equate to less recoil and less noise if subsonic ([email protected] level).
The Win AA low recoil/low noise factory loads average 980fps. They break clays and kill birds. Low velocities also improve pattern density. Fast and heavy is way oversold.

$.02


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:53 am 
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Location: Western Tampa, FL
I used to like shooting everything with those 1,060 fps original Herters shells from Cabelas. I never saw any disadvantage to using them. I do prefer the 7 1/2 size shot. I even shot informal Olympic bunker trap and never saw any difference in how the birds broke.

I have conducted some informal experiments with fellow shooters by having them substitute a 1,060 fps for their normal shell without telling them about the velocity. They were all amazed when they smoked their targets and found out these shells were so much slower than their own. Of course they also noticed the lighter recoil.

I am not positive but believe SAAMI specs for shotshell ammo allows a + or - 90 fps. If so, then your 1,145 fps factory shells could be as low as 1,055 fps and still be within specs! Imagine that. I recommend you try them and forget the velocity printed on the box. If they are inexpensive, that is just a bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:08 am 
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EuroMan wrote:

Lower velocity should equate to less recoil and less noise if subsonic ([email protected] level).
The Win AA low recoil/low noise factory loads average 980fps. They break clays and kill birds. Low velocities also improve pattern density. Fast and heavy is way oversold.

$.02




Those Winchester AA low-recoil shells are my go-to ammo for older side-by-side doubles that don't require 2-1/2 shells. I've got a couple of older guns that have had their chambers lengthened and I find the AA wimpy loads are more enjoyable to shoot out of those old guns. The fired cases measure shorter than 2-3/4 so they're almost quasi-short shells. They're also a bit cheaper than RSTs.

BTW, I've tried the Herters (and still have at least one full flat of them), but my sense is that they recoil more than the AA's. I haven't done side by side comparisons, but that's my impression.


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:29 am 
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Problem is 1,060 is a full 10% slower than 1,180 which I think is way more common. You get used to 1,180, and then switch to the slower shells, your whole understanding of required lead, whether conscious or subconscious, could be screwed up. Is that not right? I know the velocity isn't constant over the entire shot path due to wind resistance. But there will still be a differential in flight time and hence lead. Not 10%, but likely signficant based on the muzzle velocity differential for identical pellets.

Perhaps Randy has the formulas for calculating the lead differential for different muzzle velocities, target velocities and distances to target.

I found some shells at 1,235 fps which is only 5% higher than my ususal 1,180. I would rather the small increase in recoil and not have such a big difference in lead. Still, I am open to correction. What do you say, guys?

Al


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:34 am 
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When I miss I imagine velocity is the least common reason.

But then I miss a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
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Location: Western Tampa, FL
I suggest you try them and see for yourself. One empirical test is far more valuable than any calculations, extrapolations or tables of velocity. The only potential disadvantage is if you are shooting a semi-auto. Those shells may not operate them reliably.


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:49 am 
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McFarmer wrote:
When I miss I imagine velocity is the least common reason.

But then I miss a lot.


You have to remember that shotgun skill is built into the brain and muscles by the assimilation of thousands of results of hit and missed targets. If you built all that memory on the results from using one speed shell, and then change to another significantly faster or slower shell, how do you expect your brain and body to know about the change. The pattern spread helps a lot to overcome the difference, but your probability of hitting the target still has to decrease. I wouldn't carry this whole thing to absurdity, but I still think a 5% change in speed is more desirable than a 10% one.

Perhaps even worse, if you bounce all over the place with the speed of your shells while you are building all that brain and muscle memory, how do you expect your brain and body to ever figure it out?

Al


Last edited by friend of a friend on Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:53 am 
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oyeme wrote:
I suggest you try them and see for yourself. One empirical test is far more valuable than any calculations, extrapolations or tables of velocity. The only potential disadvantage is if you are shooting a semi-auto. Those shells may not operate them reliably.


Of course. At least shooting an O/U I don't have the semi-auto reliability issue. And if it was all I could get, sure I would buy the 1,060s and give them a try. Under the circumstances I just think it makes more sense to go with the 1,235s while I can.

Input appreciated.

Al


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:58 am 
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There's something to that, but not much. Breaking clays at 25 yds isn't a precision operation. The difference between a 1060 and 1145 won't be noticed by normal recreational shooters. Maybe you break the tail end of a couple more birds rather than really crushing them. Or, depending on the wind, lighting, how you're feeling that day, what you had for breakfast ... maybe everything works fine.


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:05 am 
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Posts: 341
oyeme wrote:
I used to like shooting everything with those 1,060 fps original Herters shells from Cabelas. I never saw any disadvantage to using them. I do prefer the 7 1/2 size shot. I even shot informal Olympic bunker trap and never saw any difference in how the birds broke.

I have conducted some informal experiments with fellow shooters by having them substitute a 1,060 fps for their normal shell without telling them about the velocity. They were all amazed when they smoked their targets and found out these shells were so much slower than their own. Of course they also noticed the lighter recoil.

I am not positive but believe SAAMI specs for shotshell ammo allows a + or - 90 fps. If so, then your 1,145 fps factory shells could be as low as 1,055 fps and still be within specs! Imagine that. I recommend you try them and forget the velocity printed on the box. If they are inexpensive, that is just a bonus.


I had no idea the SAAMI tolerances were so broad. But just because it is allowed by an industry society doesn't mean that the manufacturers have specifications that broad. And besides, a responsible manufacturer won't try to hit the bottom of the spec to save powder, but will shoot for the center of the specification and let statistical probability determine the actual distribution of their product. So let's say the specification allows 1,180 +/- 90 fps. A manufacturer that uses statistical quality control and assurance methods would have 1,090 fps at the bottom of the 3rd standard deviation from the targeted mean of 1,180. A customer might see that 3 times in 1,000 boxes of ammo, hardly enough to make a difference.

Al


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:19 am 
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Lest anyone get the idea I started this thread just so I could ignore any advice given here, I want to say I just ordered two flats of the 1,060. I bought all the 1,235 I could, and am relying on your advice to try the 1,060. And really, I love to try new things out no matter how strong my misgivings.

All the advice is much appreciated. I will let you know how they work for me.

Al


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:26 am 
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I like them for discreetly killing the flocks of grackles in the cherry and apple trees in the spring. And the collared dove invasive species year-round. Damn grackles and collards are a bunch of bullies.


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:01 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
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Location: Mascoutah IL
If the part of your brain that allows you to subconsciously calculate a lead without shifting focus to the barrel has been calibrated using significantly faster shells it will make a difference on the longer shots. If you sporting clay range has mostly 20 - 25 yard targets you likely won't notice a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:20 am 
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If you do the math: A 50mph crosser @40yds requires 9.6" more lead with 1 1/8 8'[email protected] than 1 1/8 8's @1300 fps. The lead thing vs velocity is way overblown.


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:27 am 
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I distinctly remember taking skeet lessons many years ago, and was told that from Station 4, a velocity change of 100fps in your load made a 3” difference in your lead. Now that is at the stake, which I believe is 22 yds, and the target is over 3” wide. Since you are shooting a pattern of at least 24”-30” wide, that difference of 3” will only make a difference if you are consistently hitting the bird on the rear(can’t remember ever being in front of a target I missed!) At longer distances it may make a larger difference, but the difference in velocity at 40 yards between a 1200fps load, and an equal shot charge of 1050fps, is more like 25-30fps.

I don’t shoot competition, only for fun, and hitting targets with a soft recoiling load that doesn’t hurt my shoulder at the end of the day is a lot more fun than getting beat up by recoil and having a sore shoulder, even if it does get me one or two more targets, which I doubt. So shoot what you are comfortable with, but don’t think you NEED 1-1/8 oz loads at 1350fps for skeet or Sporting Clays.

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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:36 am 
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Location: Mascoutah IL
fecmech wrote:
If you do the math: A 50mph crosser @40yds requires 9.6" more lead with 1 1/8 8'[email protected] than 1 1/8 8's @1300 fps. The lead thing vs velocity is way overblown.


I'm interested in the formula you were using to make such a precise 9.6 inch determination.

According to NRA shotgun ballistics data a load that starts at 1200 fps had dropped to 1038 in the first 10 yards. By the time it reaches 40 yards it's only traveling 636 fps and has dropped 3 inches. The OP was talking about a 1060 fps load. It would seem to me that a load that starts out a lower muzzle velocity might lose speed at an even faster rate.

https://rangeservices.nra.org/media/4074/shotshell-ballistics.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: What purpose 1,060 fps?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:51 am 
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friend of a friend wrote:
Problem is 1,060 is a full 10% slower than 1,180 which I think is way more common. You get used to 1,180, and then switch to the slower shells, your whole understanding of required lead, whether conscious or subconscious, could be screwed up. Is that not right? I know the velocity isn't constant over the entire shot path due to wind resistance. But there will still be a differential in flight time and hence lead. Not 10%, but likely signficant based on the muzzle velocity differential for identical pellets.

Perhaps Randy has the formulas for calculating the lead differential for different muzzle velocities, target velocities and distances to target.

I found some shells at 1,235 fps which is only 5% higher than my ususal 1,180. I would rather the small increase in recoil and not have such a big difference in lead. Still, I am open to correction. What do you say, guys?

Al


Unlikely you’d see any lead issues at 99.9% of the targets you’re shooting at.




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