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 Post subject: wads
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:38 pm
Posts: 9
Location: essex.ontario
just wondering what guys are using for wads...
shotshell wads,
traditions wads.
traditional type cardboard wads
still to try wonder wads....
just not satisfied with my patterns yet......
any other ideas...buffered worth the effort? Ed



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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:08 pm 
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Location: Stouts Creek/ USA
Been experimenting...
Had some fizzels so going back to regulars.

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:33 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:54 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Calgary
In my 16ga (.665"± dia.) with rough bores, I use some store-bought (Circle Fly O/S cards, and prelubed & unlubed cushions) and some home-made, from assorted materials: 25-point pressboard (stiff folders, dividers, file cards, etc., .025" and very strong), cereal-box cardboard, milk cartons, old felt boot-liners (I wash and dry them before punching, in part to get more even thickness), old felt hats (4X or better - I cut the hats up and iron the pieces flat before punching). Depending on the combination of punch and material, the wad diameters vary from .678-.689", although one cannot to be precise with the softer felt. I no longer use 1/8" "nitro" overpowder wads, 1/2" cushion wads, or lube-saturated cushion wads of any sort, as I suspect them of blowing patterns, at least occasionally. Due to my rough bores, I need 3-6 O/S-type cards (depending on thickness) over the powder to seal reliably, and if I don't use a cushion to carry some lube, I'll use a modification of V.M. Starr's technique and spray some lube in on top of the shot and under the O/S card.

JFTHOI, I want to try packed newspaper some time, but have never had the combination of time and ambition to test it seriously.

Regards,
Joel


Last edited by Joelvca on Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:40 pm 
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Tow or old wool felt hat

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:46 pm
Posts: 70
Location: West Mobeetie
Most of mine I use the V M Starr loading with 2 cardboard over powder cards between powder and shot and a thin card or 1/2 of a regular card over the shot.
One less object to have to deal with when loading (the fiber wad between the powder & shot )
Easier to deal with in the field, patterns ok in my guns with my loads.

Your experience may vary

rmbj

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:34 pm 
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Old VM Starr said that 0.035 was plenty of wad between the powder and shot. I agree with him, when one has a smooth, unpitted bore all the way to the bottom. If she is burned, rusted or otherwise belled out at the bottom, you have to "wad her up" until the shot is up in the normal diameter portion.

I have broken close in clay birds with no over powder wad at all. Guy behind me yelled that I broke it with the wad, no the wad is what I forgot!

I have seen lubed, (maybe over lubed), "cushion" wads blow patterns big time. Total doughnut.

And you want to keep the over shot wad as thin and soft as possible. I much prefer Mikes Wads, (Flintlocks Inc.), over the old Circle Fly stuff for that very reason. (But they have changed hands since then, and maybe got smarter.)

As to plastic, at least with real black powder, I wouldn't use them. Real BP burns hotter than smokeless and melts that plastic. Leaves a coating most all the way down the barrel. The bore just gets tighter and tighter, and harder to load again. The National Muzzle Loading outfit won't allow them because of the percieved safety hazzard. (At least they did, the last I knew.)

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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Location: BRANCHVILLE, s.c.
Yes, black powder is rough on plastic. The V.M.Star wad column is a good one. My gun, a Dixie Gunworks 11 ga., has a fair amount of age on it but it has been well cared for & the barrels are smooth inside. A 10ga. plastic wad will fit in the bore if you can get it past the chokes. The left barrel has a permanent choke tube & is extra full. The right tube is removeable & is modified. It is said to be full choke but shoots modified patterns. I have owned the gun 20+ years & still find myself experimenting with wad columns. The over powder wad or wads should be paper/card but I don't see a problem using a plastic shotcup if it is protected from direct contact with the burning powder. Some plastics are more resistent to burning powder than others. There is also no reason that a shotcup can't be made of cardboard/ paper. Some type of shotcup is required, of course, if you are using a hard nontoxic shot. The trick is to get everything down the bore & seated in the proper order. I have also used buffer but this compounds the loading problems. The wad (s) need to create enough friction/ resistence to keep the load from moving when the other barrel is fired & to get the powder burning efficiently.


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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:34 pm
Posts: 299
Location: ohio
Yes 3 thin cards over power and 1 over shot. Works in all my smoothies flint and cap 20,12,10,11ga. 11/8- 11/2 oz. shot. 11/4oz most common load. FFG= volume of shot and I allways use hard magnum 6 -shot.


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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:19 am 
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Another vote for 3 thin cards over the powder (poke a pinhole through each one to allow air to escape and make loading easier) and one over the shot.

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Tried a lubed wad over powder and shot over card in a 28ga and it worked very well. Going to just use Tracks over powder and over shot, see how it goes. And, I been gathering up wasp nests to try out.

Some do but I never believed in a wad blowing a donut. Not in BP, not in modern either. Simple physics and aerodynamics. Heavier, denser, smaller (lead shot) goes faster and furthur than a light fluffy wad. Ever find a wad in a target, either shot or ball? Shoot a paper target 20 yards away and see if you got a wad hole.


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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Thick, heavy, hard and lubbed over powder wads will most certainly blow doughnut holes in patterns!

I learned that many, many years ago with my very first muzzle loading shotgun.
12 gauge single barrel under hammer trap gun.
Found that if I was "dead on" the bird, it likely wouldn't break.
But I could be just a tad off, in any direction, and they broke, not well but did break.

So, time to pattern this baby, and low and behold, a center void, almost shot free zone!

Right then and there, I quit using those type wads and went to thin, light and unlubbed over powder wads. Then a couple of times on down the line, I had guys that I had always consistently beat, them using heavy, thick lubbed wads, tried my wad column, and went to stomping me right off!

Heh, heh, I should have kept my fool mouth shut!

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:52 pm 
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If you say so. To me that would defy the laws of physics, science and nature. Never seen it. Except shot out of a rifled bore.

Did it ever happen in another shotgun besides the first underhammer trap gun?

OH, "edited" when I noticed you mentioned other guys had that happen? I just don't get it but sticking to thin wads too!


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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:09 am 
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Yes, it did take place with other muzzle loading guns as well. Just not to the extent as with the under hammer. Perfect doughnut with at least an 18 inch center void at trap range.

But then I was aware of it, and was transitioning downward in over powder wad thickness and weight.

I know, it seems counter intuitive, but it does happen.

Some choke manufacturers make a killing selling "wad retarding" chokes.
I tried a couple of those, in cartridge guns of course, and never did find or prove a need or improvement there.

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:18 am
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Location: Dayton, OH
We use an over powder card wad that is about 1/16" thick and HALF of a lubed cushion wad (about 1/4") with absolutely no problems. Patterns beautifully with both Swiss and now Olde Eynsford powders. :D
Wad lube is half mineral spirits and half Crisco VEGETABLE oil.

This is the pattern using the Olde Eynsford. It is 24'' at 25 yds (I'm mostly a skeet shooter, so that is where most of my targets are broken)

cpg1410/albums/edit/preview_de117ce6.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:54 pm
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Location: Calgary
ShawneeB wrote:
If you say so. To me that would defy the laws of physics, science and nature. Never seen it. Except shot out of a rifled bore.

Lacking high-speed photographic equipment, I cannot say what the mechanism actually is, but I have seen the effect consistently with Crisco-saturated 1/2" fiber cushion wads, and even with 1/4" ones at sub-freezing temperatures, but not as strongly. Lightly-oiled 3/8" boot-liner felt and edge-lubed 1/4" fiber cushions do not appear to produce the effect, but I have not yet made the time to pattern either rigorously. My 16ga double has rough bores and I need to use adequate lube or else swab EVERY shot, so I either use a lubed cushion of some sort or else spritz some lube down under the over-shot card per V.M. Starr.

Concerning the mechanism, I have wondered if it might be a just-outside-the-muzzle effect, with the wad column continuing to be pushed after the shot has exited and ceased to be accellerated, giving a bump to the rear of the shot column that initiates a granular-flow dynamic that results in a "centrifugal" effect without the wad column necessarily actually "blowing through" the shot or "drafting" into it further down-range. The spark-photos and videos that I have seen of conventional wad columns near the muzzle of unchoked barrels do appear to show the rearmost shot beginning to move radially outward compared to that further forward, but the force vector field must have components directed forward into the rest of the shot charge as well.

Concerning shot out of a rifled barrel, I got even but very-fast-opening patterns out of a .50cal barrel with 1:48" twist shallow rifling and a moderate more-shot-than-powder volumetric load - no donut.

Regards,
Joel


Last edited by Joelvca on Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Mine were not "saturated", just lubricated around the circumference, but they were long, full sized wads. By long, I mean thick, at least 1/2 inch.

That is when I started cutting them down, first in half, then quarters, then eighths. The thinner they got the easier they were to load, and the better they patterned.

Somewhere along there I read V M Starr's little pamphlet, and things made complete sense. I went to one or two thin overshot wads between the powder and shot and never looked back. No more "cushion" wads of any kind.

No lube other than a squirt of moose milk down the bore on top of the shot and then the over shot wad. Thin and soft as possible. And shoot all day long with no cleaning.

I actually broke one of two birds on a hunters type match, after I had loaded without any over powder wads! The guy behind me went nuts, said that I broke it with the wad!
Nope, the wads are what was totally missing from those two loads.

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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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Location: BRANCHVILLE, s.c.
Yes, I have seen wads hit the target. It does happen! I'M still experimenting with wads. I have pretty much settled on the V.M. Star method of over powder wads but am still trying shotcups to see how they effect patterns. I wish I could master his loading technique. Imagine beating modern breech loaders so bad with a muzzle loader that he was banned from the competition! I think his skill as a gunsmith contributed much to his success.


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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:38 pm
Posts: 188
My dad bought me my antique muzzle loading shotgun for my 16th birthday, I am 70 now. It didn't have any finish at all, and the ebony ramrod was only long enough to reach the first thimble. I made a new ram rod that would stay in the gun when fired. I'd pour in what I thought was enough powder, jam a wad of newspaper down there and tamp it down with the ramrod, and then I'd pour in a palm full of shot (In those days two bucks a 25 lb bag.)and then another wad of newspaper. Sometimes the ramrod would stick out of the muzzle six inches long. That darn gun shot just fine! I killed rabbits and quail with it. I had a gunsmith re-brown the damascus barrels and I'm fix'n to shoot her again, but this time I think I'll use the proper wads. But do I really need to?Image


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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:58 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:53 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Vancouver Island
stepmac ... What a beauty of a shotgun ...... And a great story!!!!!

Lucky :)


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 Post subject: Re: wads
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:08 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:08 pm
Posts: 81
Location: UK
If you get donut patterns, you can cut your wads in half lengthways. They will still seal, but will not get blasted through the centre of your pattern.



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