It is currently Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:32 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]



Muller Chokes



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:16 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1505
Location: Warrior, Ala
Jim,
I am trying to get a good pattern for a 50 yd clay bird shot.
I am shooting a 12 gauge 30" Browning Cross Over.
I reload and prefer to shoot 1 oz lead shot loads.
I have U0 through U4 in your chokes.
I can make hits with the 3 and 4, but not consistently and after patterning several loads, I can see why or have an excuse.
Am I going to have to step up to 1 1/8 oz and/or use a waterfowl choke?




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:23 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 11:18 am
Posts: 253
Respectfully, you need to shoot the same targets with a premium grade factory shell....your problem may not be the choke. 50 yard FITASC targets can be crushed consistently with a #3 Muller, and top of the line AA's, Gold Metals, or Remington Nitros...

What's in your wallet??, no wait, what's in your reloads, and have you ever pattern them?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:13 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1505
Location: Warrior, Ala
SCshooterAA wrote:
Respectfully, you need to shoot the same targets with a premium grade factory shell....your problem may not be the choke. 50 yard FITASC targets can be crushed consistently with a #3 Muller, and top of the line AA's, Gold Metals, or Remington Nitros...

What's in your wallet??, no wait, what's in your reloads, and have you ever pattern them?


Thanks for the interest in the issue. I do see more hits with the AA SuperSport load 1 1/8 oz, 1300 fps, than my 7/8 and 1 oz loads. I was hoping there was a solution in making the light loads pattern tight enough to be effective.
I have patterned the 2 listed loads pretty thoroughly at 50 yds. I think they reach their limit at 40 yards.
Additional information, my 7/8s load is 1400 fps and the 1 oz is 1300 fps. I have loaded up a batch of the same wts down to 1250 fps in both wts. I will keep experimenting on my own unless Jim or someone has a choke/load that will stay tight at 50+.


Last edited by railroad on Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:57 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 1154
What shot size are you loading?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:28 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1505
Location: Warrior, Ala
I thought I was shooting 7.5 and was going to change to 8's. When I opened the 8's, they looked bigger than the 7.5. The 7.5's turned out to be closer to #8. Anyway, I am shooting those 2 sizes.
I am limited to 7.5 on the larger end, range rules. I am not having issues with the carrying distance or the energy of the impact, yet. I just cannot find a combo to tighten the pattern.
I am not a big fan of "wad affect on patterns" at that distance, but have some DR, TGT and Versalite loads to try next time.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:37 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:27 am
Posts: 5881
Location: Silicon Valley
Railroad:

Your problem isn't choke -- the U3 will reliably break 50yard edge targets, but you need to use good loads.

So what are good loads? Any premium shell from Rem, Win, Fiocchi, Kent, Rio, Bornaghi, Clever, RC and more will do it. The key being a premium load with high quality shot. It doesn't have to be nickel-plated, but the "diamond" style or "polished" hard shots from a few of those manufacturers are excellent, as are the nickel-plated options. Rem and Win's premium target shot is not polished nor does it look as nice as the polished stuff, but it performs well enough to break reliably at 50 yards using 1oz in a U3.

Same holds for reloads -- you need to be using good, hard, and most of all round shot -- which is harder to come by than one might imagine. Next is a good wad. I have had excellent results with both DR and CB wads in either AA or Rem hulls; DR12-1fits best in AA hulls, DR XL1, DR TGT8 and CB AA clone in Rem hulls. I've had the best performance by keeping the load between 1230 and 1280 FPS.

Finally, most of the folks I see having poor consistency on honest 50+ yard targets simply aren't getting the barrel in the right place before they pull the trigger...

_________________
Jack

Human ego will naturally resist change, yet change is the fuel that powers progress...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:28 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1505
Location: Warrior, Ala
Jack,
Thanks for the information. I feel like I am doing everything you suggest, short of the polished hardened shot. I think I have a stock of Eagle and a few other brands. I stopped and ordered a bag of Lawrence, even though it shows the same % of antimony. No nickel coated available from my source. I will pattern some of the premium ammo brands and see what they do, although I will be comparing 1 1/8 to 1 oz. I am breaking some 50 yard birds, but I feel like I am leaving something on the table after see it on paper.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:34 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:27 am
Posts: 5881
Location: Silicon Valley
Railroad, one more thing: no pattern looks very good on paper past 40 yards. For 50+ yard targets, look for a pattern that puts 90+% of the pellets inside the 30" at 30 yards. Better still if the majority of the pattern looks like it's about a 26" circle at 30 yards.

_________________
Jack

Human ego will naturally resist change, yet change is the fuel that powers progress...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:52 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1505
Location: Warrior, Ala
I did not do a pellet count on the targets, but had some very sparse and void areas.
More than a few of the pellets are getting outside the 30" circle, 1 oz, 50 yds.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:08 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:27 am
Posts: 5881
Location: Silicon Valley
railroad wrote:
I did not do a pellet count on the targets, but had some very sparse and void areas.
More than a few of the pellets are getting outside the 30" circle, 1 oz, 50 yds.


Of course -- 50 yds is a long way, and no choke/load combo will pattern 100% inside 30 inches at that range. Plus all patterns have voids, and those voids get more prominent after 30 yards. Also, a static 2-Dimensional pattern is not a good way to predict intercept probabilities between a target moving in 3-D and a 3-D shot cloud moving 3-D... It's why you want to pattern for 90+% at 30 yards -- that in itself is hard to do with sub-par ammo, but the U3 will get close with good ammo and the U4 should do even better with good ammo.

_________________
Jack

Human ego will naturally resist change, yet change is the fuel that powers progress...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:53 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1505
Location: Warrior, Ala
I agree, but how did sub par ammo get to be an accepted fact?
I can greatly improve the paper with 1 1/8 reloads, HS hulls, Win primers, any brand wad you can name and Lawrence or Eagle shot. My goal is to tighten a 1 oz load for a good pattern at 50 yds.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:51 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:43 pm
Posts: 929
Tom Roster has been pattern testing for many years and advocates that antimony is the deciding factor in patterns past 40 yards. The roundness and shape makes very little to no difference in patterning and the same with nickel coating. its all about how hard is the shot according to him. He has done more testing than the rest of us combined.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:42 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:27 am
Posts: 5881
Location: Silicon Valley
railroad wrote:
but how did sub par ammo get to be an accepted fact?


Because we -- meaning target shotgun shooters -- are a notorious group of cheapskates. And then there's the added fact that ammo quality doesn't matter much for targets under 35 yards, which happens be within the range that most targets are killed in.

_________________
Jack

Human ego will naturally resist change, yet change is the fuel that powers progress...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:10 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 11:18 am
Posts: 253
The Eagle shot is not your friend at 50 yards...it is much softer that Lawrence or West Coast, and is typically undersized. If you are loading Eagle 8's, the average pellet size is most likely closer to a 8 1/2.

Go to trapshooter.com; they did a very technical, lab based examination of the shot contained in (about) 10 different factory shells, as well as available bagged shot. Eagle didn't do too well, either size or hardness. The test results were very interesting....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:24 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1505
Location: Warrior, Ala
Illini Shooter wrote:
Tom Roster has been pattern testing for many years and advocates that antimony is the deciding factor in patterns past 40 yards. The roundness and shape makes very little to no difference in patterning and the same with nickel coating. its all about how hard is the shot according to him. He has done more testing than the rest of us combined.


I will definitely take that into consideration. I thought I was shooting Eagle and impulsively ordered a bag of Lawrence. The order person said both showed 4.5 % antimony, I think. Anyway they both were the same and I went to my bench and there sat about 4 bags of Lawrence, I had been loading.
I guess nickel plated will be put into the game. I have some home made shot, that was very hard and polished, but I doubt I have any left. I had the maker polish it for me. On a side note the jugs were full to the top before polishing. After polishing the fill was 3 or 4 inches lower. My assumption was the friction between the shot was reduced, allowing the shot to stack much closer together. I thought this was great and would reduce damage to the shot as it is constricted through the choke. I might try polishing some factory shot.
Thanks for the info.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:24 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 1154
While the 50 yd+ target us interesting, fun, frustrating, etc... It's the ability to not screw up the vast majority of shots on the other stations.

You thread has me curious, just how many true 60 yd targets do you (think) you see in an average registered shoot?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:56 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 619
Location: Western Colorado
Rooster booster wrote:
While the 50 yd+ target us interesting, fun, frustrating, etc... It's the ability to not screw up the vast majority of shots on the other stations.

You thread has me curious, just how many true 60 yd targets do you (think) you see in an average registered shoot?

About the same as the number of "perfect 10s" you see at the bar on a Saturday night.

_________________
"I always miss if I get a chance to take careful aim" (Pea Eye, in the movie Lonesome Dove)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:37 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 1154
Perfect!:-)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:11 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1505
Location: Warrior, Ala
Rooster booster wrote:
While the 50 yd+ target us interesting, fun, frustrating, etc... It's the ability to not screw up the vast majority of shots on the other stations.

You thread has me curious, just how many true 60 yd targets do you (think) you see in an average registered shoot?


I just shoot for fun and compete with the locals. We have 2 targets on our 5 stand that offer 50 yd shots. The rest of the field requires normal concentration and maybe IC to Mod chokes.
We also shoot Wobble trap, which a U2 will cover, but we back up to add to the challenge and probably get several 50+ yd shots.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 50 Yards
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:29 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:26 am
Posts: 283
Location: Millville Delaware
I remember Jimmy recommending loads 1200- 1250fps and slower for the farther shots for pattern holding reasons. I have friends (M class shooters) that took the U3 to 80 yards just to see. That, was back when Jimmy had recently entered the choke tube business. I just started shooting " slower" loads on Jimmy's recommendation.( 1280 Rios before 1210 and slower now) 1oz and 7.5 shot . U2 bottom U3 top.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 3crosses, albanygun, bigeejakes, Bing [Bot], Bird Guide, breakumall, Buzz95, casonet, Cletus McGinn, Crossing shot, DanG, doder, domboost, Dr Duk, Eriehunter, gallus, Google [Bot], grade6man, harvard, hawglips, ithacanut, itskens, JeffColorado, Jerry1234, John Henry, johnnymose, jrmev, killerb, KRIEGHOFFK80, Lefty Ray, LG66, llc, majorfadal, Maser, mike cross, mike orlen, mortum, MTclacka, old 12, oldbejuanyaknowme, percula, PhilipMarcAssad, PhotoAaron, Powderflask, powerserg31, prostockta, rautdr, rbshire, RobertL, Rooster booster, Rudolph31, RUT, Safetyfast, SDV, searun, simsy9, Skeetnutz, Skeetshooter875, slowisfast, Spab*, spartacus38, speckman2, sportclay100, Stuck-N-Kali, SuperXOne, SWPAMike, TactaLoad, thumper696, tmitom, tradarcher, troxelal, whackem_stackem


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
© 2017 Carbon Media Group Outdoors    - DMCA Notice