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 Post subject: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:22 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 451
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
Below is a response I just posted on Todd's forum and thought it might be of some interest to trapshooters. The original question was from a shooter that would start well and then could not hit anything until he re-dotted. In my opinion cross-firing is the single most misdiagnosed, misunderstood and probably the single reason that many shooters never advance in their careers. Let me hear your stories.


I hope Todd will not be upset for me hopping on his forum but assuming he is not I will tell my story from the perspective of someone who shoots trap but also shoots a little skeet.

The eyes can switch control at about any time and place (post). Using myself as an example might shed some light on cross-firing.

I shoot trap with both eyes open no tape or dots but with a blinder on my barrel.

When Todd and his All American buddies came to the Grand American we did a special Skeet/Trap shoot-out with the Skeet guys each paired with a Trap All American. They shot buddy backer upper doubles from the 27 yard line. It was a great time and as reciprocation I went to the World Shoot and shot the Mini. Actually, I went two times and the last time shot with Todd, Kurt, and Larry.

While I was prepping to shoot the World I started shooting a lot of practice skeet including the Wyoming State skeet shoot. I shot all four gauges and the doubles. All 5 of my scores were between 81 and 85. Trust me these are hard to take when you are averaging 99 at trap singles.

I kept working on skeet and finally noticed one pattern pertaining to my misses. Virtually all misses were high house and it did not seem to matter which post. I ignored the obvious data until it became so obvious that I was cross-firing on the high houses that finally out of panic and desperation I tried taping my left eye.

The first round I shot with my left eye taped was a practice round and I just happened to have the 28 gauge tubes in. I broke 97 and two of my three misses were high 8. Prior to that my high score any gauge practice or registered had been 92.

I can shoot a skeet practice round or two (if I am lucky) with both eyes and break 23,24, or 25. Generally, after 2 rounds about the best I can muster is 19 or less. if I tape up my scores go right back up.

The whole point of this is just one example of a cross-fire problem. Rest assured that there are as many different stories as there are shooters and no two are exactly alike.

You have to find what works for you. AND NO it is not your imagination.




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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:33 am
Posts: 1207
Location: Southern California
Phil Kiner wrote:
The whole point of this is just one example of a cross-fire problem. Rest assured that there are as many different stories as there are shooters and no two are exactly alike.

You have to find what works for you. AND NO it is not your imagination.


It definitely is real. I struggled with what I thought was cross dominance for nearly 2 years and my averages were horrible. I finally just closed my off eye. My practice 16 yard average went in four months from 16 to almost 23 and is improving. (There were other problems of which bead watching was paramount.) Now that I am starting to get a game, I am thinking about trying to go back to 2 eyed, but first I may just register for my first ATA shoot at a local club.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 451
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
Why would you go back to two eyes now that your are hitting well??

The reason your scores were down was due to cross-firing!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:30 pm
Posts: 89
Phil thank you for posting this. I grew up shooting with one eye closed. I have been away from the game for close to 40 years and decided to try it again. Virtually everyone at the club tried to convince me to learn to shoot with both eyes open.

I have started shooting with one eye taped, and my scores improved quickly. However leaving both eyes open (with one lens taped,) reduced the eye fatigue considerably. So I guess that makes me a one eyed two eyed shooter. Next step is to get rid of progressive lenses and just stick with distance Rx. I think the field of view on these progressive lenses is very small as I am still getting eye fatigue.

Phil, one question. What does the blinder do that is different than the dot or tape? Just wondering if it is the tape giving me eye fatigue, the progressives or both.

Thank you,

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Not Phil, but I would most certainly bet it's the progressive lenses!

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:30 pm
Posts: 89
Thank you. I have Phil's DVD which covers a lot on cross dominance. One of the symptoms is to start out shooting well and then have it all turn to hell in later rounds.

Well that happens to me, but I swear it is because I just can't see the bird clearly as I shoot more.Very blurry, eyestrain, eyes watering etc.

I have a condition called post virtual detachment which causes floaters and a little foggy vision from time to time ( ok almost always), but that does not explain the eyestrain, fatigue and tears that I'm getting.

I just got an new Rx. Glasses should be in next week. If they are good, I'm going to order a set of glasses with just distance Rx in there from Decot. After that I'll have no excuses left :)

again thank you for your comment. May seem like a little bit, but I need a little nudge before I break out the bankroll on another set of glasses.

Best regards,

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:39 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 451
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
Hard to say what is causing the fatigue as it could be one of several things.

Having said that progressive lenses are HORRIBLE to shoot in.

One of my private students that I had spent a lot of time with, became very erratic and neither of us could not figure out why. We are talking a AA-27 yard shooter that would shoot an 88 in the singles on a nice weather, nice target day and with no apparent reason.

Finally, out of desperation I said lets change lens color and see what that does. He replies that the red lenses were the only one with his current prescription but changed anyway. Immediately the mystery misses went away. He then commented I wonder if it is the change in prescription or the progressive bi-focal. He had new lenses made w/o progressive and everything went back to normal.

Since then I have had several students try progressives with very similar results. Additionally, if your optician does not understand clay target shooting they could place regular bifocals incorrectly for looking down the gun and seeing at distance.

One other thing to try is black tape instead of frosted. Some will like black better and others will like frosted better. Go with the one that feels the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 426
Phil

What are your thoughts on Dr Martin's statement in "An Insight to Sports"

"Cross firing is a symptom, find the cause, don't treat the symptom. Cross firing is due to a faulty centering movement."

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 451
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
"With all due respect to Dr. Martin he does not totally understand the situation.

When the off eye decides to take over it doesn't matter how well you are centered on the target it will take over and you will cross-fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:10 am 
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Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:45 am
Posts: 102
Digging this one up. This thread and a few others like it have finally created a path for me and my sons. As someone who has always enjoyed shooting, but never a serious clay shooter, I have always been absolutely baffled by my eyes. The tests show that I am left eye dominate. I am right handed.

I have experimented with shouldering and shooting left handed, only to continue to see what I call a "double" image. When I went through NRA coaching clinics, everyone would tell me I have to switch to shoot with two eyes, and that I haven't given it enough effort. The reality is I see a "double" image from either shoulder.

I may not be a champion clay shooter, but logic tells me, there is something going on. And finally, I start running across a few articles on crossfiring. These articles describe exactly what not only myself but my two boys are struggling with.

Here is a drill my two sons and I did this weekend. Shoulder the gun with both eyes open. Slide your hand down the side of the gun to block the opposite eye. Do this from both shoulders. It was amazing, both sons could see clearly from both shoulders when my hand would get exactly the same distance from their face, about a foot from their face. From both shoulders we have to disrupt the opposite eye from trying to take over whether it is the dominant eye or not! I think we are finally on to something and can start figuring out a fix that works.

Even with the issue, my 13 year old can hit 20+ and my 10 year old can hit 15+. I am excited to see what can happen now that we have a big clue!

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 451
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
It doesn't matter if your eye tests dominant or not you can still cross-fire.

Most of the time switching sides to get to the dominant eye will still result in cross-firing.
Having said that you should probably still test if you are not totally "one side handed" in which case it probably won't work.

Badda..... I also had a posterior detached vitreous and if the "gel" was in the wrong spot I would miss, additionally the only way I could hit consistently was to close my left eye.
When your vision blurs it is very possibly the two eyes "fighting" for control so you are getting vision from both eyes equally at the same time. This is where the visual confusion comes from.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:42 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:45 am
Posts: 102
A new development. If I wear a baseball hat pulled down on my forehead, I can see clearly down the barrel. The bill of the hat "confuses" my eyes enough to allow me to see. Here's what is even crazier, I can see clearly down the barrel from both shoulders like each eye is dominant.

I am getting closer to figuring out a path to putting my eye challenges behind me.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:15 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 451
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
It is not just what you see when you mount the gun, it IS what happens when you shoot the target.
With what you are describing I would bet that you are going to end up having to either occlude or close the off-eye (left eye) AND you will need to be shooting right handed.


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 Post subject: Crossfire Resolved !!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:03 pm
Posts: 78
About a year ago I got back to traphooting after a 12 year absence. I was always a casual shooter but now retired, wanted to become a bit more serious about the game and start shooting registered targets. Years ago I could easily break a 23 every outing as a two eyed shooter. As I started shooting again I suffered mightily, shooting some of my lowest scores ever. I was having alot of difficulty mostly with left hand targets. I am right eye dominant.

I picked up Phils online clinic and eye improvement programs. I worked the eye program twice a day for 4 weeks. My tracking definitely improved but I still had problems. I thoroughly understand gun fit, gun hold points, eye hold points, etc. and all was good in that regard. I suppose I wasn’t really aware of how prevalent a problem cross firing is with some people until I did some research and watched Phils video clinic. I didn’t realize that almost 75% of women shoot better one eyed... who knew!

I started with a meadows industries sight blinder...some improvement but I still had issues. I decided to continue shooting with the sight blinder to see if I could improve further. Then the epiphany... I changed out my solid white lite pipe for a flourescent green just to try it. I did some mounts with the gun. As I was looking down the barrel, my right eye was looking at the green front sight when all of a sudden the only thing I was seeing was the backside of the sight blinder. My left eye had completely taken over, blocking my right eye from seeing the front sight. I actually had some difficulty in making my right eye take over again.

Now granted, I was not looking out past the front sight as you would normally do to aquire the target, but it certainly proved a point to me about cross over.
I realize this could happen easily if I were accidentally ‘bead checking’, but was it also happening when I was tracking the target?
I remember having watched a youtube video of Nora Ross and thought to myself, perhaps I should try shooting with one eye. I started with magic dots and then completely taping over my left lens. I was doing better but felt a bit weird with my left eye open, but occluded. I decided to completely close my left eye.

The results were astonishing! First time I used one eye - 25 straight. Then my first 50 straight and shooting registered with one eye a few days ago - 48 of 50! one bead check and a head lift did me in there. Hard lefts became as easy as straightaways. It was almost like cheating.

I understand the benefits of shooting with two eyes, but perhaps there is also some merit to the idea that the brain has less information to process and coordinate when shooting with one eye. I now do the eye video once a day with just the right eye, as well as wear an eye patch over my left eye for about an hour each day as I go about my daily routine. I am going to continue this to super strengthen my right eye, purposely neglecting my left. Although I will continue shooting one eyed, In about 6 months I will try shooting with both eyes to see what happens.

Phil, I can’t thank you enough for the online video clinic and eye improvement program. These are absolute Gold, and were invaluable in helping to both identify and overcome this issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 451
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
I am glad you were able to figure out your problem and get a resolution that helps your scores.

I said in one of my Trap and Field articles that cross-firing is one of the most prevalent problems in trapshooting today and it is one of the most mis-diagnosed, un-diagnosed, miss understood problems in shotgunning today.

It is hard to overcome 150 years of misinformation. Many 2 eyed shooters that don't have a problem cannot understand just what is going on.

There was a post on another forum where a shooter was bragging that you can go from 1 eye to 2 with some hard work. He said that he had committed himself to extra hard work and more practice and was proudly announcing that after 1 year he was shooting almost as good with 2 eyes as he had been with 2.

My comment is that is he had put that much time and effort in working on his 1 eyed shooting, how much better could he have been?

I will also bet that he will have days when his scores tank and it is because he will still cross-fire, especially when the pressure is up or it really means something.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:05 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:03 pm
Posts: 78
Phil, is it still possible to have cross firing or cross eye dominance shooting with 2 eyes open while using a sight blinder?


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 451
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
Absolutely!!!

it’s not that your off eye cannot see the bead- it’s whether or not your off eye can see the bird!


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-firing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:47 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:03 pm
Posts: 78
Thank you! That explains a bunch. I went to a sight blinder because I knew I was having cross dominance issues and it helped, but I was still having what appeared to be the same issues just not as often. I would have a couple of great rounds (24,25) and then everything would go to hell on the third round (19). Or I’d be hammering targets and then miss 3 in a row. Thank you for clarifying this. Back to one eye for good!




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