It is currently Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:26 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:52 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:50 am
Posts: 290
Location: Tahlequah, Cherokee Nation
The first shotgun I ever bought with my own money was an Ugartechea 20 gauge side by side. I paid $450.00 back in 1983 the day I turned 18. I recall that being a fair amount of cash back then, but I was still a senior in high school at the time, so any kind of expenditure seemed big to me.

I bought it because the two uncles that I hunted upland with most both shot A y A side by sides. One shot a 12 gauge Matador, using it on everything, including running straights on the skeet field. The other shot a No.2 in 28 gauge. That was a sweetheart of a quail gun.

The deal was that most of my family were pretty casual quail hunters, but those two uncles of mine with the A y A's were hardcore quail and chukar chasers. So I wanted a good side by side, too, but I wanted a light subgage like the A y A No.2

Side by sides hadn't enjoyed their minor resurgence then. McIntosh hadn't written "Spanish Best" and if he had, I didn't know about it.EDITED 3/11/14 "McIntosh" didn't write "Spanish Best" and I feel like an idiot for not getting this right. Terry Wieland wrote this book as pointed out correctly by "leftieD" further down this thread. It's an excellent book and something more than just a "gun book" and I feel pretty bad about crediting it to another author. I don't know what I was thinking, but I thank "leftieD" for pointing out this grossly negligent error on my part. In my circle of association, the Remington 1100 was king and side by sides were relics from a bygone era.

The closest thing I could find in those days before Al Gore invented the Internet were some boxlock Ugartecheas at a fly fishing store. Figuring that was as close as I would ever get, I made plans to buy one.

I quickly discovered what kind of rep Spanish guns had.... People thought I was nuts for expressing a desire to own a side by side, but they really thought I'd lost my mind in contemplating buying a Spanish-made one. Back then, nobody seemed to know what in the hell an "Ugartechea" was and didn't seem to care. They had lots of opinion about "Made in Spain," though.... Every bit of it was negative.

Even my uncles who shot A y A's were skeptical.... An A y A could be a good gun, but any other Spanish gun might be a disaster. They both tried to talk me in to buying a Browning BSS instead.

Such seemed to be the reputation of Spanish guns back then.....

Flash-forward to the early 2000's, and somewhere along the two-decade long line of shooting and hunting with my 20 gauge Uggie, the Spanish side by sides seemed to have a vastly improved reputation. More people seemed to know what an Ugartechea was, too...

I actually tried to sell my Ugartechea many times, but I couldn't find any interested buyers. Then, around the early 2,000's, in seemed like there was a dramatic change of opinion.

I think the Internet played a significant role. It allowed people who liked their Spanish guns to discuss why they did so among themselves, bringing down the barrier of distance... Eavesdroppers on these conversations got exposed to a different view of Spanish guns than they may have been exposed to, previously....

Back in 2007 or 2008, I finally did sell my Ugartechea to a co-worker moving to Georgia with plans to do plantation style quail hunts. I sold a gun that nobody but me seemed to want not too many years before for $1,200.00, with the buyer believing he was getting a great deal compared to the cost of a new one.

My plan was to part with the Uggie to partially offset the cost of an A y A 4/53 in 28 gauge. A friend of mine has one and after shooting it, the Uggie just wasn't very satisfying.

Then, something happened......

My son, who formerly had little interest in shotguns, decided he wanted one after a little exposure to the sporting clays game. He wanted an O/U. The only thing I found that fit him reasonably well but was light enough for him to swing while not kicking him too hard and still having decent claybusting ballistics was a Yildiz SPZ ME in 28 gauge.

In spite of all of the talk of "Turkish trash" on the Internet, I took a gamble and bought the gun. My biggest mistake, though, was shooting it.

I was quickly smitten with the thing and wanted one for myself. Once I finally found one and bought it, my desire for an A y A 4/53 kind of vaporized.....

Compared to the Uggie I used to have, my Yildiz is vastly superior in terms of fit, handling dynamics, and build quality. It made my Uggie feel crude and look rough-hewn by comparison.

I never was totally, 100% satisfied with my Uggie. I am as close to it as I've ever been with the Yildiz. It's a gun that continues to amaze me and it has handily exceeded every hope and expectation I had for it. If this is Turkish quality, I'll HAPPILY take more of it.

I expect we'll reach a point where Turkish guns are more accepted in the U.S. market, when the term "Turkish trash" will fall by the same wayside that "Spanish $**t" and "Japanese junk" fell in to. I don't think we're very far from it, either.

What say you?




Last edited by JPShelton on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:48 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:14 pm
Posts: 19721
Location: Just South of Indiana Gun Club!
I bought a CZ/Huglu back in 2008 and everybody said they were junk, and would not last. So I started a thread on the Huglu forum about my Canvasback, 27,000 rounds later it is still working fine without any problems, I have added a CZ 912, CZ 912 Tom Knapp edition, CZ 920 (which had to go back twice before the QC problems were fixed, now it is fine). i also have two Yildiz O/U shotguns, 12 ga, and 20. They all shoot great, and all are doing well. You are correct in your assumption, at least as far as I am concerned. :D



cdb

_________________
NRA Life Member
CZ/Huglu Shooter..912, 912 Tom Knapp Edition, 920, Canvasback Deluxe, 452 FS, and Trek Domone SL 6 Disc Bicycle Rider
Remembering My Friend 2fewdaysafield. The Huglu Drifter, Have Huglu, Will Travel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:29 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:50 am
Posts: 290
Location: Tahlequah, Cherokee Nation
cdb1097 wrote:
I bought a CZ/Huglu back in 2008 and everybody said they were junk, and would not last. So I started a thread on the Huglu forum about my Canvasback, 27,000 rounds later it is still working fine without any problems...


I followed that thread for quite a while.... At the rate I'm going, if nothing changes, it'll take me ten years at least and likely a couple more to get 27K through my 28 gauge Y-gun.

If a gun is junky, I'd certainly like to know that before before spending money on one, but one of the things that bothers me in researching guns on the Internet is the whole "Japanese junk / Spanish $**t / Turkish trash attitude some commentators have in voicing their opinion of a gun's merits. I guess I don't see that something automatically has to be junky based on its country of origin, and I don't see why folks in some other country would be less capable of designing and building a quality product than folks here in the USA.

My Yildiz, so far, has been FAR more reliable than the last three shotguns I bought new that were produced by the company that once billed itself as America's largest sporting arms makers. I bought a 3200 from the last year of production and had to special order it as none of the dealers around me had them in stock. It had lots of problems right out of the box and Remington claimed they couldn't fix them. I had an 1100 Sporting that shipped with the rib mounted off center and eccentric choke tube threading, among other issues. I had a similar poor experience with an 1100 G3 Competition. I know plenty of other people got perfect examples of each of these, and I'm not raking muck here to poo-poo on "Big Green," because I know they can make a quality product. I also know they can turn out some stuff that isn't so stellar. "Made in the USA" didn't guarantee that those Remingtons I had issues with wound be flawless so, conversely, I have a hard time believing that Made in Turkey automatically has to equal inferior design, materials, and workmanship.

Another gripe I have that is allied to wholesale dismissal with comments of "Turkish trash" is that they often come from people who haven't even handled or shot, let alone owned, the particular model they're lambasting.

Krieghoffs are said to have "German quality" but Germany also exported some pretty horrendous, low-quality, Zamak-framed handguns, too. Beretta 68X's come from Italy, but so did Armi San Marco percussion revolvers that were far from being the highest quality available on the market. That's to illustrate that we say that this gun or that one has "real German" or "real Italian" quality but that we're really doing is expressing judgment based on individual merit. Italians and Germans can make stuff every bit as inferior as folks from any other part of the world can. They can also turn out stellar stuff, too, just like people in other parts of the world can.

I'm hoping that the shooting community here in the USA can get beyond blanket assumptions based on country of origins with respect to Turkish guns and simply judge individual makes and models fairly and objectively on the basis of individual merit without the provincialism that seems to creep in when ever someone asks if a Huglu or Yildiz or Akus model is a good gun or not.


Last edited by JPShelton on Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:06 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:41 pm
Posts: 19
Every time I mention an interest in a Turkish O/U all I hear is "buy a B- gun and you will more than justify the extra $$". So far, my TriStar Viper has been fine. That, and threads like this one, make me feel all the more inclined to a Turkish O/U. Yildiz maybe, TriStar probably, but Turkish definitely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:50 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:14 pm
Posts: 19721
Location: Just South of Indiana Gun Club!
That is why I don't pay any attention to the Opinions forum, I go to the "I Love My" forums, where the guns are actually owned, and the majority of the time honest reviews are given, by shooters.



cdb

_________________
NRA Life Member
CZ/Huglu Shooter..912, 912 Tom Knapp Edition, 920, Canvasback Deluxe, 452 FS, and Trek Domone SL 6 Disc Bicycle Rider
Remembering My Friend 2fewdaysafield. The Huglu Drifter, Have Huglu, Will Travel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:21 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 12:05 pm
Posts: 55
The Turkish autos have been great for the last few years, and the doubles seem to be getting there also. Fit and finish of the more common Turkish shotguns like CZ,s, Tristars, Escorts, and the Weatherby autos is at least as good as what we are seeing from the Italian guns, and sadly better than most of the US built models. As a bonus, there is a lot of nice Turkish walnut in Turkey, and I have seen some stocks on $400 Tristars that would be an expensive custom shop upgrade on most other guns. The fact that many US manufacturers are turning to Turkey for their shotguns says a lot to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:15 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:31 pm
Posts: 172
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
I just bought a ATI Cavalry O/U and haven't been able to shoot it yet as I have been somewhat busy with other stuff. What hurts is that I am only 20 minutes from my local Sporting Clays range and just haven't able to make it there. .

_________________
RudyN
Browning White Lightning
NRA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:17 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:47 pm
Posts: 10735
Location: Coastal NC
Turkish guns made since the gun makers installed CNC tooling are as good as you can find in their price range. I own several and one of them was made before CNC tooling and it works just fine. It is crudely made, rough around the edges, but it never fails. I have a friend who is a metallurgist and he assures me that the guns made since 2008 that he has examined and did his tests on are of as good a grade steel as any US made gun.

_________________
Evan

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” (Albert Einstein)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:59 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:50 am
Posts: 290
Location: Tahlequah, Cherokee Nation
gdog25 wrote:
Every time I mention an interest in a Turkish O/U all I hear is "buy a B- gun and you will more than justify the extra $$". So far, my TriStar Viper has been fine. That, and threads like this one, make me feel all the more inclined to a Turkish O/U. Yildiz maybe, TriStar probably, but Turkish definitely.


Those "just buy a B-gun" folk have my undivided attention until they add that "and you will more than justify the extra $$" bit.

I like a B-gun as much as the next guy. What I like even better, though, is a shotgun that actually fits me and has the handling dynamics I am looking for. Off the rack, I don't get proper fit with a Browning OR a Beretta. Neither of those brands of O/U fit me as well as my Y-guns do. For me, shopping outside of the B-gun box IS NOT about saving money. It is all about finding a gun that really fits because a gun that does that is one I am going to hit with.

I fully understand the economics of shooting. I shoot a piffling 2,500-3,000 shotgun shells a year. The majority of them are fired on a sporting clays course, with most of the remainder shot in pursuit of wild upland birds. I spend about $4,000 a year to shoot that non-volume of shells, once all of the costs are factored in, like ammo, range fees, making 300 mile round trips to the nearest sporting clays course, eating lunch and dinner out while in transit to and from, buying out of state licenses and traveling to out of state hunting grounds, and so on. That's a lot of money to spend for the privilege of not really shooting a $450.00 Yildiz a whole lot. It wouldn't cost any less to shoot a $190.00 Maverick by Mossberg and it wouldn't cost me any more to actually shoot a $4,500.00 A y A 4/53.

So that's why I get a little miffed at helpful advice to "buy a B-gun, and you'll more than justify the extra $$". If I was worried about justifying dollars, extra or otherwise, I'd be in to coin collecting rather than a hobby that has me whizzing money away with every trigger pull, and I'd darn sure NOT be as in love with the 28 gauge as I am. I'm not looking at other kinds of gun other than B's just to save a buck. I'm just trying to find a gun that fits off the rack best and has the handling dynamics I'm looking for. Some of those non-B's are made in Turkey.

I'm smitten with all three of the Yildiz guns in my household, but if the first one that I bought for my son as a birthday present hadn't fit me as if bespoke, there wouldn't have been a second one in the gun room. I'd be shooting a different gun that did fit and it might or might not be Turkish.

If I still lived in Southern California, I'd have probably just bought Beretta O/U's and had them fitted to me, even if I had access to a Y-gun. I would have likely done that because I wouldn't be wondering how soon my gun would wear out or whether it would hold up to the shooting I have in store for it. Because they have a track record, there's not much risk involved in buying a B-gun compared to something else that doesn't have a history of reliable function.

But living in the epicenter of nowhere as I now do, I've got no clue how I would go about making a B-gun fit me correctly or who to take it to within 150 miles of me to make that happen. All I do know is that they don't really fit me off the rack like Yildiz SPZ ME's do.

Absent of access to a good gunfitter, "just buy a B-gun," though well-intended advice that I'm largely on-board with, really isn't all that helpful to me. Why would I want to buy a gun that doesn't fit all that well instead of one that fits as if bespoke?

Maybe some people do look toward Turkish guns simply to save a buck, but I know that's not why I bought three of them and I doubt I'm alone. Advice that assumes otherwise tends to not be real helpful, and so it is with advice that assumes the selection of guns I have to try on for size or the aftermarket resources I have at my immediate disposal are the same as they are for others in different parts of the country.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:30 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:44 pm
Posts: 998
Location: Kansas
Image

I can tell you these birds didn't know the diffrence !!!

Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?

Good thread , and yes your are right , I have owned a 4/53 and a Uggie Boxlock and handled CMSC RBL 20 Ga., browning BSS 20 Ga

I feel like my Cablela's Dickinson '' AKUS'' handle's and shoots better or eqaul to all mentoined above. My BSS shoots were i look to ( Guess what the diemiosions are almost exactly the Same on the AKUS )


Some of the best Values in gun's I have seen

_________________
''Brush,Bobwhites & Brittanies''


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:36 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 232
We like our Yildiz O/U's. reliable, shot well and great looking guns. Some folks complain about the recoil, but we simply put limb savers on them. We hunt with them, but also put thousands of round through them at the skeet range.

I'm very pleased with the quality of this Turkish gun.

_________________
Mark

Alabama

Browning Citori 725 Sporting 30" 12/12
Browning Citori 725 Field 28" 12/12
2 Browning 525 Field 28" 28/28


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:47 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:28 pm
Posts: 5098
Location: Dutchess County, NY - the northern most county of Alabama
Spanish Best was written by Terry Wieland.

You never ask a MOPAR guy about a Chevy. A Chevy guy about a Ford and a "B" gun guy anything about anything but a "B" gun. The vested interest that "B" gun owners have towards their guns sometimes clouds their judgement, IMHO. Good guns, but it seems a threat to admit that other makers are turning out good guns too. Even CG had a hard time the first few years that they attempted to broach the clays gun market - today the "B" gun guys are very quiet if you ask about a Caesar Guerini.

But to your question, in many ways Turkey is the "new" Spain. Guns there are turned out that are built to a price point and quality is what you pay for. More or less like the '60's was for the Spanish makers.

None are hand built and most low-end guns suffer from hit-or-miss QC. Some look like they were hammered out and not machined. Other are better but still suffer from QC problems. Huglu is well served in the USA by CZ and any QC issues are quickly handled by their service department, but Huglu QC is not catching all the problems beforehand.

There are some better guns coming out of Turkey. But as far as I know none of the better guns are hand made like that Spanish Basque makers turn out when they work at it. CNC and modern manufacturing seems to be the rule for the better Turk guns.

Akus is the best maker that I've seen guns from. (Webley & Scott, S&W Golden Elite's and Dickinson) I'd say they are the closest to the quality of the Italian guns. They also are well balanced guns and are not clubs when held in your hands. All my $0.02 and results may vary.

_________________
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

- Ben Franklin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:07 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:50 am
Posts: 290
Location: Tahlequah, Cherokee Nation
leftieD wrote:
Spanish Best was written by Terry Wieland.


It sure was!! An EXCELLENT book, too... It's something a bit more than a typical "gun book". I feel really bad about not giving proper credit where it was due. Thanks for the correction!


And thank you, leftieD, for your contribution to this thread. There was some good stuff in it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:33 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:35 pm
Posts: 3798
Location: Maumelle, Arkansas
I received a SA-08 Waterfowler 3.0 for Christmas 3 1/2 years ago and it was my first Turkish gun. I have used it more to duck hunt every year since. Last year I think I hunted my SX2 twice and never picked up my 11-87.
Last fall I bought a Yildiz 20 ga. A71. Terrific dove quail gun and the fitting of parts is better than my Beretta A303 made in 1985.
I will be duck hunting with it some this year. It shoots great patterns with 3" #3 steel at 1330 fps. Should be good to about 40 yards with the factory modified choke.
Not all Turkish guns are good, but neither are all Amercan guns, and the B gun prices have gotten silly.

_________________
WELL YOU GONNA PULL THOSE PISTOLS OR WHISTLE DIXIE ?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:51 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:40 am
Posts: 295
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Lots of good stuff in this thread.

To the OP's question, I'm not sure if Turkey is the new Spain. In some ways I think it is coming to resemble more the American gun making industry of roughly the first half of the 20th century, which to my way of thinking, was a Golden Era, that ended sometime between 1950 and 1975. Metallurgy and CNC processes have underpinned the remarkable progress of Turkish gun making in the last generation, not hand work. Just to take Winchester as an exemplar, guns like the Model 12, the Model 70 and the Model 21 were beautiful, mass produced examples of highly skilled machining and well designed products. If you could ask AKUS what it wants to be when it grows up, there would be worse answers than 'Winchester.' By contrast, with the emphasis on hand made guns built to order, the Spanish were emulating the British model, and that's an approach the plays directly into the modern fetish for light game guns. It's a much more personal, bespoke proposition.

With respect to the B-gun crowd. Oh well. Great guns. A lot of those guys have their identities tied up in what they shoot. My Dad was a Browning guy (his identity wasn't tied up in it, though). I understand Beretta has a facility in Turkey and for some of its line is sourcing components and doing as much work as it can there without no longer being able to stamp 'Made in Italy' on the final product. Don't know if that will change the opinion of the Beretta faction or if that will just be one of those things (like the drug addict in the family) that it's not polite to bring up in conversation.

_________________
ApacheCadillac
Cherish the mist's seared residual


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Turkey be the New Spain of Gunmaking?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:20 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:07 pm
Posts: 100
Bought a Yildiz O/U that impressed me for a while, but then it developed intermittent issues with the safety.

Bought an AKUS (S&W Elite Gold) SxS, and was very impressed with it until I took it to a patterning board and found out how poorly regulated the barrels were.

The Turks can make fine guns, they just usually don't. But they are getting better. I just took another chance and ordered another AKUS (Dickinson). Should be here soon. Fingers crossed.

The Spanish figured out doubles a long time ago. Their biggest problems stem from their own government's incompetence. Their second biggest problems stem from consumer taste in the only significant market left in the world for moderately-priced doubles, the U.S.

The Russians might be up-and-coming, but they have a long way to go.

I haven't seen a Brazilian double that I would keep if it was given to me.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 375shooter, 76FJ40, Baron23, Basstar, beetle, Bing [Bot], Bladeswitcher, brokefootkenny, Browning90va, cdn, chairman, Clayhater, Cooper4141, dasroofr, Dave in Wisconsin, Dmc57, DonnyO, drcook, floridaford, Gadwall, Gone shootin, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], gunsmoke1, Gunsmokesupply, idsktshtr, J.T. Guitar, Jason Johnson, jaybird75, JER2, Joe Hunter, John Henry, Ken W., Kingair, KRIEGHOFFK80, leomat, LG66, lt0026, maggs01, Mike Noel, mortum, msmith, mtchamber, MTmag, Nate_Evans, nikko12, NTxAg, Oblio13, OldStufferA5#1911, oneounceload, oregunner, painter*, PaulCriswell, pintailwizard, railroad, rickeroo, riflegunbuilder, Rooster booster, RudyN, RUT, SG4343SG, shotgun red 52, SmokeJS, Steve Y, SuperXOne, themayor, Treshombres, Turkinator, Twodog, UNCC Grad, Waldyo, weagle, woodcock1, Yahoo [Bot], ysr_racer


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
© 2017 Carbon Media Group Outdoors    - DMCA Notice