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 Post subject: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:07 am 
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Just curious if anyone else has noticed the apparent and tremendous improvement and reload-ability of the RIO 28ga hulls, since I believe they have begun being mfr'ed here, CONUS?

Years ago, I snapped up 40 flats of RIO 28ga and the plastic on those hulls was the then standard, more rigid and 'brittle' of most all straight-walled (SW) hulls, compared to domestics such as Rem and Win 28's.

Over the course of the last several years; however; I have noticed the RIO 28's we're purchasing are much, much easier to not only get really decent crimps with but, are offering more multiple reloads, than their predecessors. The plastic on these newer hulls seems thicker and with more plasticity built (chemical-mixed) into them.

Just wondering if any other RIO 28ga reloaders are noticing anything similar . . .

Last decade or so, I have been reloading my RIO 28's for league skeet, backyard 5-stand, etc. with 5/8oz #9 (or, 8-1/2 for the 5-stand), the Gualandi original SC-28 wad, 13.5 grains of Solo 1250 (now gone . . . :-( and Fio 616 primers. Once I am out of Unique, I will give Alliant's 20/28 powder a long overdue try!

PS- thanks to the forum Mod(s) for accommodating us with this sub-forum, too!



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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Location: Covington, WA USA
thor_sen wrote:
Just curious if anyone else has noticed the apparent and tremendous improvement and reload-ability of the RIO 28ga hulls, since I believe they have begun being mfr'ed here, CONUS?

I'm not aware of any improvements simply because I don't shoot 28 (yet), but I can tell you that a whole lot more of them started showing up on the fields lately. And so I've been been collecting the newest RIO 28ga hulls with the hope that they will be a viable reloading candidate for reloading. I'll probably be getting a 600jr for 28 gauge and getting into reloading 28 after the first of the year.

I think what a lot of us would really like to see is "tremendous improvement" to the Rio 20-gauge hull (specifically it's base wad composition).


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
I've been reloading Rio 28 ga for the better part of the year.

I found I was only getting about 5 good reloads out of AA HS hulls and I really want a Hull I can get 10+ loads out of. Initially, I reloaded them with 3/4 oz shot, 20/28 Aliant powder, Claybuster Wads (the red AA HS ones), and nobel 209 Primers.

My initial testing got 14 reloads before they got too ragged. The Rio started failing due to the crimp, where the AA HS typically failed by blowing out on the wall.

I then started looking at different wads, in an effort to get a better crimp.

I loaded several Rio's with Gualandi, Claybuster and Federal wads and then dissected the Rio hulls to look at how they were seating, and sealing.

The two Green Wads are the Italian Gualandi. One is a bush wad. The Pink is a Claybuster for normal AA (not HS AA) and the Purple one is a Federal Wad.

I def don’t like the seal on the Claybuster, and you can see the wads seal isn’t as tight as either the Gualandi or Federal.

When you look at the crimp (all used the same powder, and same amount of shot) only the Gualandi crimp nicely.

All this leads me to say the Gualandi is the best wad for reloading Rio Hulls.

All of these are 3/4 oz of shot using 20/28 Aliant powder.

If I wanted to use a heavy load, like 1 oz of shot in the 28 ga, the Rio would be ideal for this, but I would use Blue Dot Powder, and the AA HS Claybuster wads which is just slightly wider and would seal better, I think the Federal Wad would work well too.

Bottom line is, I get 10+ reloads these out of the Rio's these days compared to only 5 or 6 out of AA HS. I did reload quite a few 3/4 loads using Blue dot, and because blue dot is bulkier, it crimps much better then 20/28, but burns dirty.

I haven't found many people singing any praise for the Rio 28 ga Hulls, and they aren't as straight forward to load since there isn't good data out there, but I like them, especially if shooters are pron to toss them, I'll reload them, and I'm not the only one thats been reloading them with great success at the club I shoot at.

Here are some Pictures.

Image
Gualandi Brush Wad

Image
Gualandi Sporting Wad

Image
Federal Wad

Image
Claybuster Wad

Image
Crimp Comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Wow! - what a great, valuable, and informative post! - thanks for taking the time to lay this out like that.

And the pictures are stellar, and second to none!.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:14 pm 
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A perfect example of the importance of fitting the stuff that goes inside to the size of the cavity that you are filling.
Slamming stuff together does not guarantee a finished shell that is usable, no matter where you get a recipe or who sez it works.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
Thank you for the kind comment Republican, I'd been looking for more information on Rio 28 ga Hulls, and just couldn't find much, so I had to figure some of this out, and thought I'd share. I also have read many of your excellent posts, and tried to present some helpful information on reload options using the Rio, so hopefully, it will help others.

At the moment, I pretty much only reload 28 Gauge, and as most, started with basic AA HS reloads as they have the most support and published data, but was disappointed that I could only get 4 or 5 good reloads from them, and thus I started experimenting with the Rio Hulls, as they were readily available to me.

Curly-Nohair, your absolutely right, if your going to "tweak" things, its a good idea to really look at what your doing. Additionally, For each type of load, I've typically checked the pattern and put them through a Chrono to make sure things look good. I've also been attempting to find the right mix for a 5/8 oz load using the Rio's, and the key there is to use a Bulkier Powder with the Gualandi Sporting Wad. I'll have to dissect one of my 5/8 oz loads and add it here.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:30 pm 
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I am surprised that you are getting such a short hull life with those WWAAHS hulls in 28.
I get extraordinary life using 20/28. With the extra volume that you have available in those hulls, Unique may be a great choice. Proven performer for decades and a bit more bulky.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:54 am 
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Location: Covington, WA USA
mbedit wrote:
I also have read many of your excellent posts, and tried to present some helpful information on reload options using the Rio, so hopefully, it will help others.

Well, your post was well-presented, and is exactly how I would have presented it, thus why it caught my eye (and thus the complement).

And it will help others, - including myself. I'm looking to get into 28 gauge pretty soon, and I'm "mentally" gathering (and book marking) every bit of information that I come across, so you have succeeded in at least helping me in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
Curly-nohair, yes, I was surprised as well regarding the WWAAHS hulls, but after talking to others at my club, they have all said they too have recently been getting fewer reloads.

Regarding using Unique, I suspect it is a good choice, but Unique has been scarce in my area so I haven't tried it yet.

Based on the data I have using Blue Dot in the Rio 28's, and looking at data for reloading comparable hulls (chedite or Fiochi) I think Green Dot, Herco or Unique could all be contenders.

I have a single stage Sizemaster, and have found that, by volume, a 22-24 bushing is going to give you the best crimps on the Rio's. So looking at the Mech Bushing charts we can work the data backwards.

From a cost perspective, the Green Dot seems to take the least grains, and give the most volume, and is probably the powder I'll try next.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:30 am 
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Great usage of the bushing chart, I wish more folks would use it in that manner. Remember that you can still have a 2 size swing, but it is a great start point for eliminating many possible choices.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
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Location: Wilmington, NC
Well, it turns out there is a very good reason the Gualandi Sporting wad seems to fit the best.

I decided to cut open a factory new Rio 28 to compare, and the Rio 28 Factory uses that exact same wad.

I was also surprised by my club today that they had gotten some Unique in and rationed out 1lb to members, so it looks like I will be trying the Unique very soon with a Rio load.

Once I try some loads, I'll cut one of each open and take some pictures and post them.

In the mean time...

Here are some shots of a Factory Rio, and a 5/8 oz reload using Blue dot and Claybuster HS wad.

Image
Factory Rio 28 ga Load.

Image
5/8 oz reload using Blue Dot and a Claybuster AA-HS wad.

Image
Comparison of Factory Rio Wad (on the left) and the Gualandi Sporting wad I bought from ballistic Products.

Image
Comparison of factory load to 5/8 oz blue dot reload.

Image
And a Crimp Comparison of the the reload to a factory crimp. (Factory is on the right)


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:22 pm 
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mbedit, thanks for the information and pictures. I like strong, tight crimps on my .410 shells and sometimes, when necessary, will shim up the top to do that. I find you can use cards, cork, or Styrofoam equally well to fill up the void. Just the addition of a card will take up some space as the crimp folds will have the card under it and the shot won't be rolling around into the folds. It should help maintain a nice level top of the shot load also. Since these materials are very light, they will blow away quickly once out of the muzzle and will not effect the patterns.

Here's another innovation from a long time ago that would solve matching wad column length to powder and shot loads. These are no longer available, but the innovation is a sound design.

Image

I'm using their blue .410 wad with excellent results in the AA-CF cases. I know that Gualandi favors the idea of a self-adjusting wad column and you pictures bear that out. From the feedback I get from 28ga. shooters, I believe you will experience very good results with Unique powder. Good Luck!

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
Thanks Lionhead! I know you can get overshot cards... but what I think I really rather have is a punch tool that you can make overshot cards with... buying cards seems like getting the fish while a punch seems like learning how to fish.

I'd been looking for such a tool... but hadn't found one for 28 gauge. If anyone has a recommendation and can point me in a direction I'd be keen to see!

A bit off topic for the hulls, but I did get some Gualandi brush wads and loaded a couple boxes of WWAAHS with them. I'm interested to see how they fair for a short game like Skeet.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 9:19 am
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mbedit wrote:
Thanks Lionhead! I know you can get overshot cards... but what I think I really rather have is a punch tool that you can make overshot cards with... buying cards seems like getting the fish while a punch seems like learning how to fish.

I'd been looking for such a tool... but hadn't found one for 28 gauge. If anyone has a recommendation and can point me in a direction I'd be keen to see!


I use a 15mm punch from Bloomer Tools to make overshot wads for my 24 gauge. I can't be sure but a 14mm punch may work for 28 gauge - you'll have to decide if the diameter is close enough to work.

I cut my overshot wads from thicker shotshell boxes and drink coasters such as those from Olive Garden and both work well.

http://www.bloomertool.com/Metric-Arch- ... nches.html


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:56 pm 
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mbedit, I couldn't find any 28 gauge punches, but any metric punch that gets you into the .550 to .560 ballpark will work. Circle Fly wads cuts their's at .560 for the 28. I cut all my card, fiber, felt, cork wads with a .40 caliber rifle punch that measures .410 I got from Buffalo Arms. They don't make the size you need.

FlyChamps:

Quote:
I cut my overshot wads from thicker shotshell boxes and drink coasters such as those from Olive Garden and both work well.


Excellent idea! I'll pick some up for where I need a thicker card or cushion.

Tim

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"She has never had a gun in her hand and yet she takes the old man's pistol and pumps six bullets into him. Wives never miss when they shoot at their husbands. That's instinct." Lucky McDaniel


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
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Location: Wilmington, NC
Thanks for the info Lionhead!

I loaded up some test Hulls using the 12,4 gr of Green Dot, and 14 grn or Unique. Loaded 3 of the Claybuster AA (red) wads, and 3 of Gualandi wad for both powder types.

I'm hoping to get to the range today and run them through a Chrono to see what my FPS comes out to.

The Gualandi loaded and crimped just like factory with both powders. The CB is a tad bit dished in, but these loads are on the very conservative side. Always better to start out slow and add more if needed.

I'll post the chrono results once I fire them.

I suspect that if I can add another grain of either, the Claybuster wads will work nicely, and they are cheaper then the Gualandi.

The Gualandi however, would allow for a tight 5/8 oz load on the Rio's and the extra cost of the wad would be made up in the savings on lead. That is if you want to shoot a 5/8 load on 28 ga.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:36 pm 
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Excellent; keep us posted on your results.

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
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Location: Wilmington, NC
Ok, the results of my Chrno Test were as follows, for each load I shot two through the chrono.

All load used a 209 Nobel primer.

1. Unique 14 gr, CB5034-28HS at 1180, and 1187 fps
2. Unique 14 gr, SG28, at 1175 and 1184 fps
3. Unique 14 gr, BW28, at 1179 and 1178
4. Green Dot 12.4 gr, CB5034-28HS at 1158 and 1157 fps
5. Green Dot 12.4 gr, SG28 at 1152 and 1155 fps
6. Green Dot 12.4 gr, BW28 at 1155 and 1165

I ran a bore snake through my gun before each set of powders (unique and Green dot) and everyone said the green dot would burn dirty, dirtier than the unique, but that wasn't what I saw with these loads.

I thought the green dot burned cleaner, and the above chrono results suggest better consistency on the green dot.

I then loaded a box of 25 with 13.3 of Green Dot, and shot about 4 through the chrono which averaged out to 1200 fps. Exactly what I was looking for!

The crimp using 13.3 gr was tight on both the Sg28 and the CB-5034-28HS wad, with no dishing, and would not hesitate to use either for a good load.

From a cost perspective, the CB-5034-28HS combined with the green dot is the winner for me at $3.61 a box to re-load (not accounting for hull cost) but the SG28 loads are competitive at $3.79 a box, the cost difference of using factory original wads is .18 cents a box.

If you buy the SG28 in Bulk (5000 or more) I think the price drops substantially, and narrows to about 5 cent and box.

Here's a picture of the the CB and SG28 wad with 12.4 gr of green dot.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:46 pm 
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mbedit, thanks for the report and results. Great pics as always.

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"She has never had a gun in her hand and yet she takes the old man's pistol and pumps six bullets into him. Wives never miss when they shoot at their husbands. That's instinct." Lucky McDaniel


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
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Location: Wilmington, NC
This weekend I tried some of the Claybuster Wads with overshot cards to get the crimp a bit tighter.

After all this I've revised my final thoughts that the Gualandi wad is not only the best choice, but pretty much the only choice that will give a good consistent load w/o having to do extras like add an overshot card, or "bulk" up the load in any way.

My cost, per 1000 wads, of the Gualandi is $7 more then ClayBuster, but My cost of 20/28 powder is $20 more for an 8lb then Green Dot, so the extra cost of the wad is offset by the cheaper cost of powder.

If you can get 20/28 for the same price as Green Dot, then you'll be in for a bit more.

If I run the component cost through a re-loading calculator, its $3.88 for the Rios. My standard AAHS load using CB wads and 20/28 powder is $3.84. A 4 cent difference.




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