ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:48 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 111 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:23 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:09 pm
Posts: 7459
Location: NE Illinois, just outside The Gulag
So I did not go to two Kane County Illinois gun shops looking at tactical shotguns today and while talking to the sales reps I didn’t ask if I can buy a bump stock. Another all seeing, all knowing expert speaks up.

They are illegal. The discussion here proves why you should never rely on free internet legal advice.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/bump-stocksc



_________________
“The Second Amendment (1791) protects the right of individuals to keep and bear arms. The Supreme Court has ruled that this right applies to individuals, not merely to collective militias.”

Eric Blair taught us well, were you listening?

Peace Brothers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:44 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5986
I happen to agree with you on their status. I don’t happen to believe your story.

I still don’t care for needless regulations, arbitrary decisions, and/ or laws based on emotion and PC thinking. So.....I’ll continue to try and stand up for what’s right, over meaningless BS, and the general principle that covers the ‘slippery slope’.

I personally have no use, or interest in bump stocks, but I’ll support those who do.

And finally, given your stated belief regarding the status of bump stocks, it’s unlikely you wasted time asking anyone about them. Don’t make stupid $hit up. No sale.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:41 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:09 pm
Posts: 7459
Location: NE Illinois, just outside The Gulag
Both shops said they're illegal, whether you believe it or not. And they are because it was an easy call. They were designed to try and get around NFA regulations. Forearm braces will be next, they looks like
short barrel rifles, can be shouldered as such, and will be regulated eventually. You guys in free states who live in echo chambers better wake up to the train heading for us. Nothing is unconstitutional until the last court to hear the argument rules it is. Anyone arguing that bump stock are still really,really legal is a danger to the guns rights fight.

_________________
“The Second Amendment (1791) protects the right of individuals to keep and bear arms. The Supreme Court has ruled that this right applies to individuals, not merely to collective militias.”

Eric Blair taught us well, were you listening?

Peace Brothers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:37 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 10721
Fighting for Liberty is a danger to rights?

Now I've heard everything.

_________________
Just because government took control of one's actions does not absolve one from individual responsibility. Better to be in trouble with government than to commit evil.

In God We Trust.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:38 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6531
Location: Mascoutah IL
LILGUY wrote:
So I did not go to two Kane County Illinois gun shops looking at tactical shotguns today and while talking to the sales reps I didn’t ask if I can buy a bump stock. Another all seeing, all knowing expert speaks up.

They are illegal. The discussion here proves why you should never rely on free internet legal advice.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/bump-stocksc


They are not illegal and that is a fact. There is no federal law in existence that makes them illegal and words written by politicians and ATF bureaucrats cannot possibly make them illegal. The complete lack of comprehension of how our system of government works is astounding.

THINK HARDER. When someone is tried in a criminal court they are ALWAYS charged with a violation of the law. They are NEVER charged with a violation of some agencies rules or regulations. You can only be criminally convicted for a violation of the law and it is only a jury of your peers who make that determination.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:58 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 338
Location: Kentucky
As of today, possession of a bump stock is a violation of Federal Law, specifically, the NFA of 1934 and the GCA of 168. The Executive Branch of the government has decided that “a single function of the trigger” can also be interpreted as “a single pull of the trigger” and that bump stocks allow a gun to be fired by a “single function” or “single pull” of the trigger. They have been sued over this interpretation and the Judicial Branch has decided that this interpretation is lawful. The only way this will change is by action of the Executive, Judicial, or Legislative branch of the U.S. Government. You may believe differently, but your opinion on the matter does not make any difference. The law is the law, whether you believe it is wrong or not.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:58 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6531
Location: Mascoutah IL
LILGUY wrote:
Forearm braces will be next, they looks like
short barrel rifles, can be shouldered as such, and will be regulated eventually.


You just don't' get it. Again, the ATF cannot create a crime through regulation.

Adding a brace to a rifled barreled weapon with a barrel less than 16 inches or an overall length of less than 16 inches is already a clear violation of the National Firearm Act.

Braces are already a violation of federal law just as smoking pot for non medical purposes is a violation of federal law. For political reasons, the are just not going to enforce those laws at this time.

A bumpstock, on the other hand, violates no federal law.

ONLY the law defines criminal activity. READ IT.

https://www.atf.gov/file/58141/download


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:02 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6531
Location: Mascoutah IL
Denver1911 wrote:
As of today, possession of a bump stock is a violation of Federal Law, specifically, the NFA of 1934 and the GCA of 168. The Executive Branch of the government has decided that “a single function of the trigger” can also be interpreted as “a single pull of the trigger” and that bump stocks allow a gun to be fired by a “single function” or “single pull” of the trigger. They have been sued over this interpretation and the Judicial Branch has decided that this interpretation is lawful. The only way this will change is by action of the Executive, Judicial, or Legislative branch of the U.S. Government. You may believe differently, but your opinion on the matter does not make any difference. The law is the law, whether you believe it is wrong or not.


You don't know what you are talking about. You are just copying and pasting propaganda.

A bumpstock DOES NOT allow a firearm to be fired with a single pull or single function of the trigger. Each shot requires the trigger be pulled. Also, the Executive Branch of the government has no legal authority to interpret or revise criminal law.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:18 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 338
Location: Kentucky
According to the Executive branch and confirmed by the Judicial branch, a bump stock DOES allow a gun to fire with a single pull of the trigger.

You are correct, the Executive branch cannot revise criminal law. Interpret it yes .. but they don’t get the final word .. Judicial branch does. In this case, the Judicial branch agrees with Executive.

Nothing in my post was copied and pasted. It was summarized from the actual law and actual court proceedings.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:38 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 5124
Since when did the Executive Branch get to define law?

FWIW, only one shot is fired for each pull of the trigger. The gun has NOT been turned into a machine gun; it is merely firing as fast as its trigger can be pulled. NO DIFFERENT THAN WHEN ED McGIVERN PUT 5 OR 6 SHOTS IN A PLAYING CARD IN 4/10ths OF A SECOND WITH A DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER.

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:18 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 338
Location: Kentucky
The Executive branch does not define law per-se. They enforce the law .. as they fit .. until such time as the Judicial branch says they are not doing it right. In this case, they see fit to enforce it such that bump stocks make a rifle a machine gun. The Judicial branch has agreed with them.

As for whether or not a bump stock makes a rifle a machine gun .. you have your opinion, I have mine (which I have not stated), and the Federal Government has theirs. Yours and mine don’t matter.

And that’s it for me. Ya’ll can have the last words on the matter .. but what you say has no bearing on the law. What the Federal government says is what matter.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:37 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6531
Location: Mascoutah IL
Denver1911 wrote:
As for whether or not a bump stock makes a rifle a machine gun .. you have your opinion, .


You are absolutely wrong. I am not stating an opinion. I am stating fact supported by Federal law that very specifically and clearly defines a "machine gun". You will never see anyone convicted in a court of law for possessing a bumpstock because there is no law that makes them illegal.

On the other had, the same law that clearly defines a machine gun also clearly defines a rifle as "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be
fired from the shoulder". The law also says "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length" is to be regulated according to the act. Therefore, its pretty clear when you "remake" a handgun by adding a brace so it can be fired from the shoulder, you have violated the law and created a short barreled rifle. You can call it a handgun with a brace all you want, but the law factually defines it as a short barreled rifle subject to federal regulation.

Learn to learn, research and think for yourself. You are too easily manipulated by political stunts intended to scare and manipulate uninformed citizens.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:13 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 5124
OK, thanks for not having any more to say on the matter.

Denver1911 wrote:
The Executive branch does not define law per-se. They enforce the law .. as they fit .. until such time as the Judicial branch says they are not doing it right. In this case, they see fit to enforce it such that bump stocks make a rifle a machine gun. The Judicial branch has agreed with them.
What statute will a defendant be charged with violating? Executive order #whatever? ATF regulation this or that? It can't be the law that defines what constitutes a machine gun, "as interpreted by this or that bureaucrat department." There has to be a LAW violated.

Quote:
As for whether or not a bump stock makes a rifle a machine gun .. you have your opinion, I have mine (which I have not stated), and the Federal Government has theirs. Yours and mine don’t matter.
Saying a law must have been violated to be charged with a crime isn't an opinion. At least not yet. Give 'em time, though.

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:49 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 10721
Quote:
What statute will a defendant be charged with violating?


I guess if they do you like they did General Flynn it does not matter what you are accused of, you can get charged with anything. In the U.S. Justice has two eyes and a loaded scale.

_________________
Just because government took control of one's actions does not absolve one from individual responsibility. Better to be in trouble with government than to commit evil.

In God We Trust.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:53 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 10721
Denver1911 wrote:
The Executive branch does not define law per-se. They enforce the law .. as they fit .. until such time as the Judicial branch says they are not doing it right. In this case, they see fit to enforce it such that bump stocks make a rifle a machine gun. The Judicial branch has agreed with them..



The judicial branch agreed?

Oh.

I was not aware of that.

Please cite the relevant case and decision.

Thanks.

_________________
Just because government took control of one's actions does not absolve one from individual responsibility. Better to be in trouble with government than to commit evil.

In God We Trust.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:57 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:09 pm
Posts: 7459
Location: NE Illinois, just outside The Gulag
“Chief Justice John Roberts declines to halt Trump’s new ban on ‘bump stocks’”

You know, good, delusional folks like you have been telling me for almost 50 years that its unconstitutional to require a license to exercise a god given right. For all that time no court has agreed with that opinion. So I carry a FOID card so I can legally enjoy my passion. Then my state would not allow me to carry a gun for most of that time until a Federal JUDGE ordered the state to do it. Now I have another plastic card that allows me to CCW. No matter what you rant on about, you are wrong and are a danger to the rest of us that understand what we're are up against. Spinning like at top about what you don’t understand is just distracting and serves no purpose, with all due respect.

_________________
“The Second Amendment (1791) protects the right of individuals to keep and bear arms. The Supreme Court has ruled that this right applies to individuals, not merely to collective militias.”

Eric Blair taught us well, were you listening?

Peace Brothers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:42 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6531
Location: Mascoutah IL
LILGUY wrote:
“Chief Justice John Roberts declines to halt Trump’s new ban on ‘bump stocks’”

You know, good, delusional folks like you have been telling me for almost 50 years that its unconstitutional to require a license to exercise a god given right. For all that time no court has agreed with that opinion. So I carry a FOID card so I can legally enjoy my passion. Then my state would not allow me to carry a gun for most of that time until a Federal JUDGE ordered the state to do it. Now I have another plastic card that allows me to CCW. No matter what you rant on about, you are wrong and are a danger to the rest of us that understand what we're are up against. Spinning like at top about what you don’t understand is just distracting and serves no purpose, with all due respect.


I am not wrong or a danger to anyone. My comments are fact and it is you who fails to understand.

I also carry a FOID and a CCW because there is a law that specifically makes it a crime to carry a firearm without them. There is no such federal law that makes a bumpstock illegal. That's not my opinion; its an absolute fact.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:51 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 340
So please explain why you can pull a trigger on a gun with a bump stock faster than on a gun without the bump stock. Or if not, what’s the point? I’m in the dark and have no idea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:26 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 5124
friend of a friend wrote:
So please explain why you can pull a trigger on a gun with a bump stock faster than on a gun without the bump stock. Or if not, what’s the point? I’m in the dark and have no idea.


How fast is too fast? Ed McGivern was able to shoot five shots from an unaltered double action revolver in 0.4 seconds, at 15 yards, into a group that could be covered with his hand. That's a rate of 750 rounds per minute. That's faster than most bump stocks.

Should double action revolvers be banned?

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Bumpstock Prosecution Fails
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:18 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 10721
They are coming back. They just won't call them "bump stocks". They never should have linked the word "bump" to that device in the first place what with all the evil scary connotations.

Next time maybe they should call 'em Pogo Joy Trigger, or Fuzzy Rubber Bunny trigger guard guard.



_________________
Just because government took control of one's actions does not absolve one from individual responsibility. Better to be in trouble with government than to commit evil.

In God We Trust.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 111 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 1903, 65panhed, Bad English, Basstar, Bing [Bot], birdhunter39, Burnt Powder, bws8044, casonet, Chief Brody, clays99, Curtisj1980, Denver1911, dlh711, duanecox2003, dukman22, ebcjr, ellenbr, geometric, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, HenryVac, ithacarick, JacksBack, jbc247, kyskeet, lossking, lt0026, Lu 45, Majestic-12 [Bot], md2020, mechtechbob, Oldandrusty, oregunner, PeterAVanTassell, raymond525, retired2006, Riflemeister, Roger Gascoigne, Roseinmt, rschrager, Rudolph31, Scardog7, Skipper7, Slanski62, Slimchance, sneem2, soupsandwich, sportclayslayer1, SuperXOne, Sur5er, Syreel, tbomba, The Swanny, Upland Quest, Westender, wrfish


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice