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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:32 pm 
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So I really do wonder: how many actual SxS shooters are there, who judge a gun on its merits?


Key question and there's no answer except perceptions. My perception is that low-end buyers do not; they generally do not buy based on quality (actually, this isn't quite true - they do seek quality but they have a different perception of quality and define merits differently. ) and first-time buyers often cannot tell a gun's merits and have no idea of what a good SxS feels like. They very often don't even know how to mount it! I suspect if someone sticks with SxSs then quality becomes an important criterion as the Gun becomes more knowledgeable and can recognize differences and what he wants.

There is a huge component to "quality" that is socially defined and not merely the mechanical match of wood and metal. And this is not just effete snobbery - it is a real phenomenon. I have seen several people in the antiques trade go under or remain bit players (pickers) because they could not access and communicate with a monied clientele even tho they had the goods. People often do not buy outside their worlds.

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To me, it means "associated with prestige by people who don't know much about the product." I think this can have a huge impact in the shotgun market at all levels!


Absolutely true. For a brilliant demonstration of this visit the Beretta Gallery in NYC on Madison Ave. They have a pretty extensive gun room with many price ranges of Berettas and the place is often full of out-of-towners who clearly know nothing about shotguns but "ooh and aaah" and the Beretta salesman is all over them. They make a hell of a lot of money. Of course the overhead on that building is staggering and I suspect it's subsidized by their clothing which is very high quality, well-designed and inexpensive. Gotta be their big profit-maker.

Remember the object of a business is selling stuff and making money so your perception of Chivas is irrelevant if you can sell it for a profit.



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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:45 pm 
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Pumpster wrote:
Remember the object of a business is selling stuff and making money so your perception of Chivas is irrelevant if you can sell it for a profit.



Too right, Frank!

I remember being in a meeting once with several product design and marketing guys presenting a proposal for a mid-priced brand in a specific market. They had huge amounts of market data and focus group work and were making the case that they could make a great product at the mid-price point and gain share in the segment. The regional president asked them what impact they expected the brand would have on brand mix and total portfolio 24 months out and the all went slack jawed and fidgety. Finally, one of the marketing types said "but we make high quality American blend products and we need to be in this segment". To which the president said. "No, we make money. And if we can't make lots of it in this segment, then you need to find out how to make this segment go away".

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Thanks, RPRNY. Your regional president earned his pay! All of this is a very common fallacy.

I am a major holder in a start-up where the marketing people think that the object of marketing is to increase the number of people on their social network.

They cannot answer me when I ask them how that translates into bottom line. I want to sack the whole lot of them but unfortunately don't own enough of the company to do so and they have bamboozled the kids on the board that their argument is valid. I well remember how 12 years ago any website that was "sticky" was worth a fortune even if it produced no revenue. I'm in my 70s and know more about computers than these third-tier business-school products and will eventually find a way to fire the lot of them.

No market exists that is going to buy sufficient numbers of $1500 SxSs to support a business that thinks that they need to supply "affordable" guns. People who might buy $1500 guns will buy $800 shite guns instead and really not know the difference.

You have to sell to an affluent market and I go back to an earlier post where I argued that if you don't understand Van Cleef & Arpels, Barneys and Saks you aren't going to be able to market shotguns. I reiterate that the guy who has to save up a grand is not going to support a brand and the guy to whom a grand is an evening's dinner for four will find your brand invisible. You could stick your "bargain at $1500" gun up his left nostril and he still wouldn't buy it.

It's just the way the business and the human world works. There are no social subtexts here, it's just plain old business.

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Frank
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"Pumpster" is because of pumpkins, not pump guns.
It's SxS, DT splinter/English for me!
Shotguns speak in many voices and fortunate are those of us who hear more than one.
May God bless our Union.


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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:12 am 
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Quote:
Remember the object of a business is selling stuff and making money so your perception of Chivas is irrelevant if you can sell it for a profit.


Precisely my point!

The challenge is to step outside of our own perceptions -- completely -- and find out what people will buy for a profitable price. This is not easy, on either count. :)

For example, I'm intrigued by the DeHaans, but I don't really want a 28 Gauge extractor gun, and a $400 premium vs. the 20 Gauge seems excessive. I wonder whether a lot of people who buy CZs at Sportsman's Warehouse (or the similar $2000 Orvis guns) even know what "extractor gun" means.

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Barry and others - I found a listing for the S&W by Dickinson Arms:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Dickin ... =100184896

That is the S&W Elite Gold

I have NO idea who these folks are - could be a sole individual acting as importer and distributor

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Interesting. Heavier than ours (mine's about 6 lbs. 6 oz. IIRC), satin oil finish (mine has gloss finish of some sort).

I hope someone IS importing these. It's a waste of a nice design, not to.

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Seems there are QUITE a few of these listed on GunsInternational - all at Cabela's. A google search revealed he must have also been importing the rest of the Kimber SL guns as someone on CALGUNS in March there thought they had stumbled across a $35K gun for $3500. Might have been a one-trick pony - can't tell, I find nothing on them currently in business

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Last edited by oneounceload on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Interesing.

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search.c ... on&x=0&y=0

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:36 pm 
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BarryD.....

Thanks for posting that.

I can only say...."The plot thickens"!

There is certainly something interesting going on here....

One of the listings says "New", shows pictures of both English and POW grips and claims availability of both 26" and 28" barrels. This listing is for 20 gauge.

2 other listings claim a 12 gauge that is "New".

To the best of my knowledge, a 12 gauge was never made for S&W. Of course, some could have been made in anticipation of S&W expending the line but then never ordered. Dunno.

I guess the real question is whether this is "leftover stock" that never got marked "S&W" and was sold as a lot to someone named "Dickinson" who then made a deal with Cabelas or if this is a "reincarnation" of the S&W guns.

I don't have a disposable $1400 lying around right now, but I noted one of the 12 gauge guns was in Cabelas in Maine. I'm going to give them a call and see if I can get any info on these "Dickinson" guns and depending on what I learn may take a drive up there. Barrels should say where "Dickinson" is located. With that info, perhaps I could get a phone number and ask some questions.

In any case I am rather excited! Anybody that has read any of my posts knows that I am a SxS NUT and assuming this is in fact the S&W Gold Elite without the "Heirloom Warranty", I would be in for one in 12 gauge at $1400.

Naturally, my next question is when do we get a DT model and a 16 gauge?

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:42 pm 
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I had my undercover operatives go and take snapshots. :mrgreen:

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:09 pm 
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OK.....

That appears to be....

Interstate Arms Corporation
6G Dunham Rd
Billarica, Ma
(978) 667-7060

Just called Interstate Arms.....They gave me a number in Ca.

Update soon!

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:27 pm 
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2few- you can also get them to send the gun to Cabellas in Hartford and save you a drive.

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Frank
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"Pumpster" is because of pumpkins, not pump guns.
It's SxS, DT splinter/English for me!
Shotguns speak in many voices and fortunate are those of us who hear more than one.
May God bless our Union.


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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:39 pm 
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Update......

No guarantee of accuracy, just what I learned from a few phone calls.....

These are in fact guns produced at the UTAS factory (where the S&W Gold Elite was produced).

That factory was purchased by Commando Arms.... http://www.commando-arms.com/

Check the website. An interesting lineup including boxlocks and sidelocks.

Anyway, a few hundred of the boxlocks and a smaller quantity of the sidelocks were purchased as a "lot" and imported.

The sidelocks sold out quickly. The boxlocks not so much and the remaining boxlocks were sold cheaply to Cabelas.

Other than the Cabelas stock, there are 23 of the O/U guns sitting in California.

The fella in Ca claims he can get these guns no problem but needs an order of 100 or more. Boxlock, sidelock, O/U no problems.

I asked about pricing and was told that since it had been a while since any had been imported he would have to check and get back to me.

We have exchanged emails.

Anyway....the guns are still being produced, but the main focus is European sales. No "serious" effort is being made towards US sales.

I'll keep things updated as I learn.

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Thanks Pumpster.

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:07 pm 
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2Few,

Did you get any info on a service agent in the US?

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Didn't ask yet. I figure the first job is to get a firm offer on pricing. That done, I'll bring up the service issue. Grind 'em down a little. And of course there is always an "outsource option". Wonder what Mark DeHaan would say to having service on these guns outsourced to him?

Just thinking y'know.....Flat fee per gun sold....just like a Walmart Warranty.

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:01 pm 
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Interesting 2few! I'm all ears!


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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Y'know, under the "sponsorship" of Doc and shooting at his club I've had the privilege of shooting a lot of fine guns. K's, a variety of B's and a lot of others. And I am certainly no expert at judging the ability of a gun to hold up to 20,000 rounds per year of clayshooting. But for a bird gun, these UTAS guns are simply amazing. Shouldering it is like grabbing hold of a low voltage electric wire. Somehow you just feel the gun is "right". I'm going to make a deal for one of the Cabellas 12 gauge guns this week. Just wish they had some DT guns....preferably in 16 gauge! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Kris, I'm sure glad to see you buying a shotgun. I thought you were sick or something since we hadn't heard about you buying anything in several weeks!

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 Post subject: Re: Turkish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:56 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: The stars were just out of alignment for a while. Sun spots or some ship like that. All is right with the world again! I've gotta have one of the 12 gauges! At least until there is a 16 gauge! And if they were to make a 28 gauge.....OH LORD!!!! Then I would really be screwed!



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