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 Post subject: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Over the past few years, I've gathered that (in a lot of people's opinions) Browning Citoris and Beretta 68Xs represent a sort of entry level for quality O/Us that won't wear out in my lifetime.

I'm wondering if there are certain SxS models that are commonly viewed the same way. If so, what are they, and how would their cost compare to the entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?




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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:42 pm 
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There really aren't any.

That doesn't mean there's nothing worth buying. AyA, Ugartechea, etc. make some neat game guns that don't cost TOO much.

There just aren't mass-production guns like the Citori or 686 in the SxS world, any more. A few years ago, the SKB 385 and 485 were discontinued. They were the last of that breed.

Grab a S&W Elite Gold if you can still find the one you want.

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:36 pm 
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BarryD wrote:
There really aren't any.

I guess that explains why I wasn't aware of any.

Quote:
That doesn't mean there's nothing worth buying. AyA, Ugartechea, etc. make some neat game guns that don't cost TOO much.

There just aren't mass-production guns like the Citori or 686 in the SxS world, any more. A few years ago, the SKB 385 and 485 were discontinued. They were the last of that breed.

I've looked into the Ugartecheas a little previously and heard good things about them. Unfortunately, since they aren't as common, I've never been able to handle one or even see one in person. I'll maybe have to pursue that a bit more. If any repairs or parts replacements were needed on such a gun, would it cost much more than it would for more common shotguns?

Quote:
Grab a S&W Elite Gold if you can still find the one you want.

I have no good reason for this, but somehow S&W and shotguns don't seem jive in my mind. I'll look into them though.

Thanks for the reply


Last edited by Idek on Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:38 pm 
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What about a Browning BSS?

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:44 pm 
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+1 on the B-SS

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:46 pm 
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I'm afraid that Roblack nailed it!!!.
A fantastic 20 gauge for less than $2,ooo that your grandchildren will fight over.
Someone is sure to chime in that they are a little heavier than some of the cheaper piece of sh!t Turkish guns and to that I say,"Do a couple of push-ups" and then go shooting.

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:30 pm 
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First of all, +1 on the Uggie.

There are basically two types of SxS's:

Type 1--light, quick handing guns similar or equal to British game guns. These are meant to be "carried a lot and shot a little". Examples of this in the entry level department are AYA 4-53, Uggie Grade 1, all those Turkish guns-CZ/Huglu, Smith and Wesson Elite, to name a few.

Type 2 -- The Robust SxS. These are heavier guns that can take a pounding. They are more suited for all round shooting including clays and waterfowl but, in my opinion, leave a little to be desired in the looks department. Browning BSS, Winchester 21 are two well made examples, although the 21 is hardly entry level.

And of course, everything in between.

The great thing about SxS's is that there are 1000's of choices, new and vintage, low and high grade, cheap and take-your-breath-away expensive. English, Spanish, Vintage American, Scottish, French, German, Belgian--you get the picture. You can spend the rest of you life immersed in total obsession, cash poor and gun rich.

Good Luck!


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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:49 pm 
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2lo8s wrote:
I'm afraid that Roblack nailed it!!!.
A fantastic 20 gauge for less than $2,ooo that your grandchildren will fight over.
Someone is sure to chime in that they are a little heavier than some of the cheaper piece of sh!t Turkish guns and to that I say,"Do a couple of push-ups" and then go shooting.

Classic. Love it.
Also, the Winchester 23s were very similar in capabilities and quality to the BSS. All my double guns are gone now but one. Don't shoot enough to be able to switch around without a big penalty. But I kept my BSS Sporter 20. Love that one.

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:02 pm 
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Thanks for the continued responses. I'm assuming the Browning BSS is no longer in production. Is that correct?

A couple people alluded to gun weight. I'm more interested in an upland gun than a target gun, so I'd probably lean more toward the lighter guns (possibly 20 ga. w/ 3" chambers).


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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Every now and then, you can find a Browning BSS or an SKB 100, 200 or 285. I would lean towards saving my money until one of these deals came along.

good luck,
Maggs


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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Browning BSS
SKB 385 and 485
Beretta SilverHawk
Older AyA and Uggies

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:21 pm 
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OK, I'm new to the SxS world, but I want to suggest a great little gun; A.H. Fox Sterlingworth.

I just recently got one and I think it fits your requirements. It is the lowest grade of Fox and of course they are old. Nevertheless, it should stand up to some serious shooting. Better yet, they can be had for less than $2K. I see lots out there between $1K and $1,800 all the time.

I can't say that it's better that the other guns mentioned because I have no experience with those. All I can say is that mine is 85 years old and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it a bunch.

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:28 am 
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Rastoff, where do you suggest people look for such guns? I've never bought any used guns, much less one that's 85 years old.


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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:59 am 
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Idek, You mention an upland gun, 20 with 3 inch chambers, If it is an upland gun, it will slap you silly. a 20 will probably weigh in about 6 1/2, maybe 7 pounds, and with 3" chambers the recoil will get your attention. A 20 gauge most anything will run higher than a 12, as there were fewer made. A 20 Sterlingworth in good condition will fetch on average about $2000. A 12 of the same model and condition will see about half that or a little more.

There are some fantastic guns out there for reasonable prices, but if you get into the Belgian or British guns, be aware of the short chambers, 2, 2 1/2 inch types. Nothing wrong with any of them, just need to know its not a good practice to shoot modern ammo in them. The short chambers can run the pressure up above what the gun was designed. Also noteworthy, is the proofing or pressure intentions of some guns is not up to our duck loads, or heavy loads. An upland gun is usually built with about 7/8 - 1 1/8 oz shot at about 1100 - 1200 fps, which no quail or dove I have seen can out run.

Good luck with your search,

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:36 am 
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Go look on www.gunbroker.com All those dealers with hundreds of solid recommendations have not just been waiting to screw you.

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:22 am 
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870shooter posted in part:
Quote:
but if you get into the Belgian or British guns, be aware of the short chambers, 2, 2 1/2 inch types. Nothing wrong with any of them, just need to know its not a good practice to shoot modern ammo in them. The short chambers can run the pressure up above what the gun was designed.

It is very good advice to know what length your gun is chambered. Very few are 2-inch; 2 1/2-inch is relatively common especially in English guns but they certainly are designed for modern ammo and it is readily available - just make sure you have the proper length.
Don't shoot 2 3/4-inch shells in 2 1/2-inch chambers. Just as you wouldn't shoot 3-inch shells in "regular" 2 3/4-inch chambers.

The Citori is a tank and the Beretta 68Xs are also built to take heavy loads. That is not the real design philosophy behind a good SxS upland gun. I own a Beretta Silverhawk and I find it too heavy and unresponsive to be a good upland gun. However, it will not wear out in my lifetime. But none of my guns will wear out in my lifetime, including my light 20gauge guns and my light 12s and 16. I don't stuff 3-inch shells into them and shoot at ducks.

An Ugartechea boxlock SxS is an excellent gun - they have a very good record of reliability and their cost is modest. Only slightly more expensive is the AyA boxlock. I think these two modern guns are excellent "entry-level" SxSs. You can find both used on Gunbroker.

A word of caution, however, if you are new to SxSs. They are a different breed of cat and one needs to pay more attention to good shooting form and the gun really needs to fit you well.

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:39 am 
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If you can find a BC Miroku SxS, it should be well within that price range and a very good value. The SKB SxS's are fine upland guns and generally lighter than the BSS's.

That said, it is hard to beat a Fox Sterlingworth for your purpose.

Just my two cents.


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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:44 am 
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Be care with the SxS thing. It can prove to be very addictive. My first SxS was a Beretta 20Ga. I bought it because I wanted a SxS to add to my gun inventory and this one had drop dead wood. Never intended to buy a second SxS.

The Beretta is long gone, but I now have 5 to take its place, all CSMC, and they are the only guns I take upland hunting. Two of the guns are Model 21s (12ga and 20ga) and they do double duty (pun intended) as bird guns and clays guns. The others are strictly bird guns. They are far too light to shoot clays with any degree of comfort but they are awesomely deadly on birds.

The three SxS guns I'd point you to are the CSMC RBL, the Beretta and the Merkel. All are incredibly solid guns and can be found on the used market at very reasonable prices. Their weight is adequate for clays and not too heavy for upland hunting. Merkels come in box lock and side lock versions. The side lock guns are very expensive. The box locks are substantially less. I think the RBL is an incredible bargain.

If you can find a good used Model 21 in your price range, I suggest you consider it. They are built for the long run. It is my opinion that the CSMC Model 21s are better built than the originals. However, both are excellent guns.

Some of the older Model 21s have a lot of drop in the stock so be aware of that potential issue.

Another potential issue with SxS guns is that they are largely built to shoot flushing birds (they shoot high). The shot distribution on my SxS guns is about 60/40 and I've seen some SxSs with as much as 80/20.


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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:00 am 
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Idek wrote:
Rastoff, where do you suggest people look for such guns? I've never bought any used guns, much less one that's 85 years old.


GunBroker
GunsInternational
AuctionArms
GunsAmerica
Doublegunshop.com
and a host of others

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 Post subject: Re: SxS equivalent to entry level Browning/Beretta O/Us?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:35 am 
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Ooops I missed the 20ga part. Yes, the 12ga is much more prevalent and less expensive. The great thing about the 12ga is that you can still shoot light loads in it if you want. Still, I understand the draw to the 20ga.

Here is a Sterlingworth for $799: http://www.cabelas.com/product/Gun-Libr ... t103581180

It's no show piece, but it will be a solid shooter. Best of all, it will get you a nice SxS for not a lot of money. There are a bunch more in the Cabela's Gun Library. They don't have the best prices, but it is a good place to look.



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