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 Post subject: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:24 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1921
Location: noVA
I was diagnosed with astigmatism about 2 years ago by my eye doctor....ok, no big deal....when shooting clays, I first was a one eyed shooter then received instruction on two eyed shooting. Ok, the two eyes open thing worked for a while but I noticed I had trouble shooting at targets that were not "in your face"....This past week, I talked to a fellow shooter about this and he asked if I had an astigmatism. I said yes and he suggested that could be the main culprit as he has the same issues so he reverted to one eye shooting to alleviate the problem.

Is there anyone here who has similar issues? If I'm confronted with, let's say, a long crossing target, I need to become a modern day pirate and close my non-dominate eye so I can determine where in relation the target is to my barrel and adjust accordingly to give it the lead it needs to be broken. If I don't, I end up shooting all over the place, even when I am "shooting where I am looking". I have been doing a hybrid method: open both eyes to acquire the targets and close my non-dominant eye when I am about to pull the trigger.

I would be interested to hear from other shooters with an astigmatism.


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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:35 pm
Posts: 2205
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
I am no expert, but I believe 90% of dominant eye problems can
easily be solved with training the brain to use the eyes correctly
when shooting. I believe the easiest way to do this is to do
quite a bit of shooting with a BB gun. Do it with both eyes open,
and also try to see the BB in flight. This is good training for the
eyes and brain. Doing this your brain becomes accustomed
to the shooting problem and can handle it pretty easy. In
my opinion it pretty well even takes care of shooting with
the non dominant eye behind the barrel and leaving both
eyes open. After doing this for awhile, I have no problems
with eye issues and I leave both eyes open, whether shooting
left of right handed.

Also, I recommend the book "Relearning to See". This can give
you insights into taking care of eye problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 786
Location: Virginia
I have age related astigmatism and have discussed it at length with my opthamologist. Astigmatism is correctable with prescription lens---it is difficult to correct with contacts (but some companies make that claim). Astigmatism is what makes it difficult to tell an "N" from an "X". It may produce some blurring of a distant target but discussions with my opthamologist indicates that it should not affect your perception of the barrel. If you are that aware of the barrel you may be checking the lead and unconsciously lagging behind the target. :idea:

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:59 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1921
Location: noVA
I wear prescription lenses but my prescription is not as bad as requiring "Coke bottles" ....it's enough to require glasses to pass the DMV requirement.


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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:18 am
Posts: 1374
Location: North Carolina
sernv99
I too have a slight astimatisim issue.
My Opthomolgist and his wife are also my students.
First I will tell you that the astimatisim has nothing to do with eye dominance. Your eye dominance needs to be diagnosed by an experienced shooting instructor.
My Optomologist didn't realize that his wife was left eye dominant. That isn't stuff they routinley do. However he did tell me that the astimatisim could make the target look slightly out of focus so I decided to have that correction incorporated into my shooting glasses.
This leeds me to suggest checking out Zennioptical.com aviator glasses for your shooting glasses. My prescription shooting glasses cost me $15 a pair. I have been very satisfied with them and it takes exactly 14 days from the time I ordered them until I have them in my hands.

Hope this helps;
Chuck

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:00 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:17 am
Posts: 413
Location: SE Michigan
There appear to be two parts to your problem. The astigmatism is purely a vision problem that affects the clarity of the target. But because the clarity is decreased it "might" also affect how your eyes are working together. Solution. Shoot with prescription glasses.

The second issue is a dominance issue. First thing to do is see if you do better by just wearing the glasses. Then you can begin working on the dominance issue or continue to shoot one eyed. For your reference I am an eyedoc.

all the best,
john

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:30 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1921
Location: noVA
I shoot with prescription glasses. I confirmed that I am right eye dominant after doing some of the eye dominance tests with one of the local instructors.

I was informed Phil Kiner was planning on being in my area next year and hosting a couple of his clinics. He seems to dedicate some of his clinic to addressing eye/vision issues. Anyone attend one of his clinics? I'm not a trapshooter but his clinic can address issues that cna be relayed to all clay shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:04 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:11 am
Posts: 1070
I:
have astigmatism,
was a 1-eyed shooter,
am an ophthalmologist.
Symmetrical, mild to moderate astigmatism with normal corrected visual acuity is very unlikely to be the cause of one-eyed shooting.

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:38 am 
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Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 9:29 am
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I have astigmatism in my dominate eye.

When testing at the eye doctors' I had double vision in that eye. Sort of....there were two letters insted of one.

I wanted to try contacts. I love the vision they give but I can only wear them for about 5 or 6 hours max. They give me a headache if I go too much longer.

I don't know if it will fix your problem but it sounds like it is time for a new presciption.

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:40 pm 
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Having a mid-level astigmatism (sphere# at 3.) in both eyes and using my family lab to manufacture the Rx lenses. Also an avid shooter wearing the shooting frame and lenses that I sell. I must say that eye dominance has more to do with 1 eye vs 2 eye shooting than a correction. One eyed shooting always encouraged me to aim, even in the trap discipline. Bead checking, loosing focus on the intended moving target and not following the angle and speed the unintended result.

Our human targeting solutions computer(brain) will store target speed, flight attitude and we naturally point the solution, learn lead and follow and recognize the relationship of our point to the barrel in periphery vision. Our subconscious will trigger if the target presentation has been learned by repetition. (skeet and trap) A more deliberate conscious trigger for sporting shooters. All at the mercy of seeing the target well while on the stock. Point of impact should be expected by being familiar with the guns POI and the machanics of our point. Loose stock head contact and loose the target based on the back sight(dominate eye). Seeing clearly the only real advantage other than experience.

This is all pretty simple when compared to the mental aspect of shooting competition. There are no real gimmicks in colors or offsetting optical centers for right or left hand shooting. As long as your looking through the optical centers in each lens during the shot, your seeing as clearly as possible through the correction. Who makes the lenses more important than having the latest eye test. We naturally try to see clearly all of the time and our eyes work to focus with any eye issue or correction. Stress, blood sugar or preasure changes your Rx during the day, so its luck to be looking through the perfect correction at the time most needed. Your eye doctor has tested your vision, finding a result for the moment and from that point we naturally try to used that correction. Most eye strain is your eyes trying to focus clearly. Try someone elses glasses to prove my point. Put on an old set of street glasses and find that it only takes a short time to see more clearly than expected. Eye muscles are trying to see clearly.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:41 pm 
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I have astigmatism and I am a two-eyed shooter. I wear contacts.

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:42 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:32 am
Posts: 101
Location: Central, MN
I also have astigmatism and shoot both eye's open. If your prescription is correct I don't think it's astigmatism. It's sounds like you have a cross firing issue which I also have. Simply put sometimes your non-dominate eye takes over. In my case the shot picture looks correct but my brain won't let me fire the gun. Phil Kiner describes this as a visual flinch. This may explain why your all over the place on long crossers and closing the non-dominate eye helps. You can continue to shoot closing the non-dominate eye right before the shot or you can use a magic dot.

I have been able to shoot with both eye's open and not have problems with cross dominancy as long as I set up and shoot in a certain manner. These tips may or may not work for you as everyone sees differently and creates lead differently. It has taken me 5 years and lots of coaching to figure these things out. Hopefully I can save you some time and money.

1. Make sure your gun fits. Too much drop and your dominate eye will by occluded by the back of the receiver and the non-dominate eye will take over. Thanks Bob James Montana Long Gun's.

2.When setting up for the shot. Choose your pick up point and set your eye's beyond that point before you call pull. Your eye's can focus from far to near faster than from near to far. This helps me lock onto the target. Thanks Phil Kiner

3. When setting up get the muzzle out of your line of sight. I shoot low gun on all targets but trap. On trap targets I shoot premount but lower the muzzle out of the line of sight. You can't crossfire without a muzzle in the sight picture so I try to keep the muzzle out of the line of sight as long as I can. Thanks Gill and Vicky Ash.

4. Don't move the muzzle until your eye's are locked on the target. Your eye's go to movement so if your muzzle is moving first or faster than the target there is a chance your eye's will go to the muzzle and give that non-dominate eye a chance to take over. Thanks Gill & Vicky Ash

5. Pick a break point and use it. If I don't do this I ride the target and I can have cross dominancy issues. Thanks Mike McAlpine & Gill & Vicky

6. Shoot with a rhythm. This pulls everything together. Lock onto the target, move the muzzle, lead it, shoot it. Thanks Jon Kruger

7. 2-6 above is my pre-shot routine. This was the last thing that came together for me. Everyone has written about this and I have come up with all kinds of pre-shot routines that didn't seem to make a difference. While taking a lesson with Jon Kruger I asked what his routine was and he looked at me like I was from a different planet and replied " don't make this so hard. All were trying to do is break targets in a sport were there is no money to be won" The next station when he called pull I didn't release the target and I asked him to tell me step by step what he was thinking from the time he got into the station until he called pull. He simply watched what the target was doing, figured out the line and his break point and worked his rhythm back words from the breakpoint to establish his hold point. On crossers he used a 3 beat rhythm (move, mount, shoot) trap targets pre-mounted gun 2 beat(move, shoot)

I hope you can take something from this. It took me a long time to figure out that I had a crossfire issue and even longer to come up with something that consistently worked for me.

Tony-S


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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:50 pm 
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Thats good stuff....Tony. Thanks for sharing.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1921
Location: noVA
Thanks Tony for the detailed post..i think i lack #6, no rythm :?


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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:32 am
Posts: 672
{hs# Great job Tony, clearly stated with solid information. TR


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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:39 pm
Posts: 40
I have to throw my opinion on the pile. I have astigmatism in both eyes. I have been a "one eyed shooter" for nearly 30 years, target shooting with rifles and hand guns where it doesn't matter as much. I took up shotgun sports about 3 years ago and really understand why shooters emphasize shooting with two eyes when working with a moving target. I increased by several clay targets after I put a Magic Dot on my glasses and started shooting two eyed.

Astigmatisms will be of little to no problem to most shooters unless they are severe. I shoot with prescription sports glasses (knock offs of Sports Specs) from Sam's Club, nothing fancy but they work for me. I was introduced to Magic Dot by my friend who is a past Ohio State Handicap Trap Champion. He has more money in his guns and equipment than I have in my car! I figured if it works for him I should give it a try. I love the Magic Dot. He recently told me he has used them so long that he is now able to use a smaller dot. He is working towards eliminating it altogether.

As several other posters have commented on, it is a matter of training your brain more than anything, as long as you have a properly fitted shotgun. See what works for you. Good luck!

Claudia
NRA Pistol Instructor
4-H Shotgun Instructor

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:48 am
Posts: 16
Astigmatism tends to change over time. The first thing you should do is make sure that the prescription for each of your lenses is correct. If you are better corrected for distance in your non-dominant eye it can cause all kinds of interesting tricks. Been there, done that. Also, contacts for astigmatism are great as long as you don't want to be able to see close or far with any clarity, in my experience.
In and of itself, corrected astigmatism shouldn't cause eye dominance issues. like Dr. Banjo said. Poorly or uncorrected might be another story.


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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:01 am
Posts: 185
highstepper wrote:
Astigmatism tends to change over time.

I never had any eye dominance problems until I got astigmatism. It caused me a lot of strange misses; the sight picture was just right and the lead spot on but the bird didn't get hit. If I didn't know better I would have thought I was shooting blanks.
Once I had a new set of lenses made all was well again - but only for a few months. Then I started having my eyes checked every few months and never had the same angles twice. They did not change much but I could pinpoint the changes by looking at my score logbook.
Chasing the constantly changing angles would have been expensive so I started looking for a way around it. I tried Magic dots of different shapes and colours but they sometimes made the problem even worse. I also tried closing the left eye but my right eye always wanted to close with it. Shooting one-eyed by fully covering the left lens with black tape almost worked. My scores went through the roof but having the covered lens on for more than 30 minutes at a time was hard on my eyes.
After three months I found Shotspot. No more black lens, just a tiny translucent dot. After a few days of getting used to it I don't even notice it any more and my scores are how they should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:57 pm 
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I have a astigmatism. I'm a one eyed shooter that keeps both eyes open until the bird is spotted and then I close one eye and pull the trigger.

I know that it is better to use two eyes and that using the dot or tape removes any possibility of cross eye switching. I close one eye because it seems I can focus on the target better.

I've tried using tape and was not able to get comfortable with it. I'm going to try it again.

I'm going to give it till march. As long as it doesn't hurt my score I'll continue to use it.

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 Post subject: Re: Astigmatism and both eyes open for shooting
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:41 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:32 pm
Posts: 118
I have astygmatism too. I tried to shoot without my glasses yesterday. I hit 3 out of 15 rofl. Put glasses on today and had two 15 for 15 matches back to back. Go for the glasses. I dont see why you'd be at a significant if any disadvantage wearing glasses. Personally i outshoot my friends most of the time but that may be due to obseesive practice.

Are you missing a lot or is it just the one eye two eye thing thats bothering you?


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