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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:11 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:00 am
Posts: 511
Location: Southern NJ
The book isn't perfect but it's better than full choke! I would say 99% spot on. The cost of a day of patterning in time and materials will exceed the cost of the book.

Joe Goldberg




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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:43 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Nothing is better than Full choke. At least you KNOW you have enough. :)
You can use any combination of choke and shot size that you like, but if you cannot put the pattern in the right place you are wasting your time.
If you don't listen to the advice your coach gives you and apply it you are also wasting his time and your money. Any book is only as good as the applied science after you have read it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:33 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:38 pm
Posts: 65
Location: Pleasant Shade, TN
Dr. Jones, I just bought your book, in large measure b/c I like the way you argue. I'm a barrister in the colonies who enjoys a good argument so much I sometimes like to argue in my spare time, for free: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDjCqjzbvJY

On a more serious note, while no information about the hardware (i.e., the guns, shells, chokes, etc.) matters nearly as much as the software (the muscle memory and "on-board computer" between the ears) when it comes to hitting clays, I'm convinced I can't have too much information on the subject, as long as it's accurate information, and when we look at how much a lot of us spend on our guns, club memberships, or even a single day of clays, when you throw in gas, er, oops--petrol ;), just over $50 shipped U.S. for a book doesn't seem like a huge investment.

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Coming late to clay target shotgun sports from a tactical/personal defense background, I find that when holding a defensive shotgun, I now consider all targets, i.e., threats, to be either crossers, incomers, or outgoers.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Dobervol, I'm pretty close now to leaving Airstrip 1 and heading for Oceania, so I'll have to learn to speak kinda funny too!

I have said several times before, if the book saves you one choke, then it's paid for itself. Anybody with more than five chokes to cover the entire range of constrictions has probably over-spent.

I wish somebody would take up the frangibility of clays aspect. There's little room for doubt that some makes of clays are much tougher to break than others. A bit of independent quality control would keep everybody honest and stop the race to the bottom on price. The choice of clay probably has a greater impact than the choice of gun!

BTW, re the video, Monty Python was a bit before my time. The BBC did some great stuff back then - it's dire now. Do a youtube search for The Old Grey Whistle Test - bands from 1970s performing live. Some of the performances are considered classics.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:47 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 154
I recently patterned 7 stock chokes that came with my Guerini. I was charged near 30 USD equivalent for the pattern card, and I got badly chewed by vicious horse-flies into the bargain, so yes, I'll buy the book for saving me this hassle

I have received some rather patronising responses, in the past, from more experienced shots, and even instructors when I first started shotgunning and patterned this-and-that shell obsessively. I was made to feel pretty bad. I beat them all now at the trap lines. None ridicule any longer.

Agree clay characteristics is way overlooked.

I film trapped clays at 1200 frames-per-second for my own amusement. One thing I observed, the released clays do not always appear to spin. Perhaps I could film some black clays with a hi-vis orange dot to prove this more solidly, but this would need more cooperation from a club than I may be given.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Something is worth in the marketplace what a willing buyer is willing to pay for it and what a willing seller is willing to sell it for. Period. So, if you're willing to pay L35,it's worth it; if you ain't; it ain't. If you are; it is. Everything else is just tire kicking and dickering.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Norbert, See these videos of clays in flight and being struck by pellets:

http://www.mn-trap.org/tech_corner/n_wi ... ation.html

And for a load of other videos go to http://www.mn-trap.org/ -> Tech corner -> Neil Winston.

I guess he and I use the same camera as you (since you mention 1200fps).


MAJENKINS, What you write only applies if the buyer is knowledgeable and the seller honest. I might be selling you a tuned car that you believe (from whatever source) does 140mph (20mph more than standard). We agree a price, you get home and find it only does 120mph. Now you're not so happy about the price. Of course you may never test the 140mph claim and be happy in the belief that it will do 140mph - but other people who know better will know you have been done and tend not to take seriously anything you say about the topic.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:04 pm 
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"Of course you may never test the 140mph claim and be happy in the belief that it will do 140mph - but other people who know better will know you have been done and tend not to take seriously anything you say about the topic."

No frets, I'm been made to look stupid by people a lot dumber than you. "Willing buyer/willing seller" is the legal definition of fair market value. However, as Mr. Dickens said, "the law is a a$$, a idiot."

MAJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:51 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:33 am
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Location: Southern California
MAJENKINS wrote:
"Of course you may never test the 140mph claim and be happy in the belief that it will do 140mph - but other people who know better will know you have been done and tend not to take seriously anything you say about the topic."

No frets, I'm been made to look stupid by people a lot dumber than you. "Willing buyer/willing seller" is the legal definition of fair market value. However, as Mr. Dickens said, "the law is a a$$, a idiot."

MAJ


Actually MA, that isn't quite the definition of fair market value and I don't recall it that well, but it is something like what a willing buyer/willing seller agree upon in an open market with full access to information. For instance, if the gentleman from the UK cannot access the book or info about it he may not know how he should value it. In a price controlled market, the book seller may be forced to accept less than he would if his work was priced by competitive bidding.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:02 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 414
Location: Jarrettsville, MD
Dr A C Jones wrote:

MAJENKINS, What you write only applies if the buyer is knowledgeable and the seller honest. I might be selling you a tuned car that you believe (from whatever source) does 140mph (20mph more than standard). We agree a price, you get home and find it only does 120mph. Now you're not so happy about the price. Of course you may never test the 140mph claim and be happy in the belief that it will do 140mph - but other people who know better will know you have been done and tend not to take seriously anything you say about the topic.

Andrew.


Does this mean that if I purchase your book others may no longer take anything I say seriously?


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:55 am 
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720Deere wrote:
Does this mean that if I purchase your book others may no longer take anything I say seriously?


Yes, but for different reasons. If you were to buy the book and understand it, you will find yourself at odds with many others. You'll just have to draw succour from knowing you are more knowledgeable than they are and hope for a new period of shotgun enlightenment but more likely you'll just get lynched. It's a lonely life sometimes.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:18 am 
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Dr A C Jones wrote:
...more likely you'll just get lynched. It's a lonely life sometimes.

Andrew.
A big AMEN to that. Since reading this book I've had to move my family and change my name. I'm even using a pseudonym on the internet. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:09 am 
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. . . . sorry to hear that Bob :shock:

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:56 am 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1781
I bought this book after making many disparaging comments about its none availability in the UK open market.
As with most things I was wrong ( Wife's Law 1).
If you want a copy you can get a copy without too much hassle.
The compiled data is mind boggling, but it does take time reading and searching to find information on specific subjects.
Without being critical at all I did find the format caused me to think there were lots of questions unanswered. Maybe that will lead to book two?
Interesting observations about the performance of IM, F, and XXF .
Makes me wonder if M & IM should be the default chokes for Sporting Clays.
But maybe I think too much and shoot too little?


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:54 am 
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Salopian, Rome wasn't built in a day and all that. The important thing is to build from a solid base and to this effect my effort shows analysis methods that will allow others to add to the body of knowledge.

As an example, with regard to how a clay pigeon breaks, I have shown how a rig test can be used and the maths required to analyse the results. In the book I note that nobody knows the spin rate of the clay - a key factor in how easy the clays break. Neil comes along and does the test with a high-speed camera and shows that the spin rate doesn't change much through the flight of the clay and that the spin speed is half the speed of the arm. You can take the result and reconsider my results (which were across three spin speeds). Next, somebody should re-do the rig tests to a higher level of accuracy and get a better understanding of pellet energy versus probability of a break. When that is known, one will be able to make the best estimate for the optimum pellet size for any given target. It's progress, albeit not as quick as one might like.

You'll be aware that the pellet strike versus probability of a clay break results are most unpalatable to many vocal "experts". What they should do is an experiment that can be critiqued just like mine and then collectively we move on. I'm pretty relaxed about people coming up with better results BTW - I think my main contribution is the software and analysis methods and new ways of interpreting the data (the private PM being a case in point) - they should stand the test of time.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:11 am 
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Location: Florida
I've just read the entire posts. Great stuff guys. Civilized discourse. Gentlemen.
Dr. A C Jones, I will purchase your book as much for the class you have shown, as well as the information.
Salopian, if you write a book or have one available now I'd purchase yours as well. I see shooting instructor next to your avatar, I'd take lessons from you and listen to what you had to say. I have no shooting career experience at all.
I am nearing retirement and wanted to change my surroundings and rub elbows with gentlemen, so I surmised I might find that type of folk in shotgunning. This on going conversation has proved me correct and am in the process of buying my first clay games shotgun. Thanks for the class you have all displayed.
Now I understand why some shotguns are works of art, to match the minds that some of you have.
My Dad served in WWII and spent and shared that endeavor with the English people. He always wanted to revisit England but never got the chance. Perhaps I'll go and visit in his place. Now all I need is to learn the language.

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I once used cigarettes, now I smoke clays.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:18 am 
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Done and done. The book is readily available on Amazon.com. There were two available, I bought one. One left, used starts at $87.00. I bought it at $49.50.

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I once used cigarettes, now I smoke clays.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:55 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Posts: 1781
RedRiverII,
I see you are located in New Jersey?
Look up Tom Fuemerillo at Xcel Sporting Clays, he's in Pookeepsie NY but travels.
He is a good guy and will point you onto the right path for your first steps in the clayshooting journey and will hold your hand to the end of the trail.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Salopian, thank you Sir.

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I once used cigarettes, now I smoke clays.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:55 am 
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RedRiverII, Thank you for the support. But surely if you are from Noi Jur-zoi you'd need to brush up on the language anyway in order to get by in the US?

There are quite a lot of clay ranges here sited on old air-bases from the war so you could kill two birds with one stone. A lot in the south east of England will have had a big US presence - in the east of England there are still big active US air-bases and it's around such places that NSSA skeet is practiced. For those with contacts they are also a good source for Remington STS at less than the otherwise withering UK prices (I paid almost $1000/1000 for 410s).

Andrew.



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