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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Too true, Sir.
Just paraphrasing Sir Winston Churchill.



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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:57 am
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Wow... from where can i take this

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:11 am 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1804
anisperry,
You could buy the book, read and learn.
Or you could, just hard focus on the clay and get involved in 11 pages of debate with people who cannot listen or learn on another thread on here.


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:26 am 
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Read the first four chapters, I had to read some paragraphs more than once. Interesting but slow going for me. It is more than obvious the thought and work that went in to this book. Mindful and intelligent presentation, thanks for the author's discipline.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:03 pm 
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. . . only another 28 to go then!

Over the years quite a few people have name dropped that they had read "A Brief History of Time". I always ask whether they understood it (which rather stops them in their tracks); to date nobody else has answered in the affirmative, and for the record, I couldn't understand head nor tail of it either.

So, even if it's slow going, with luck you are ahead of where you could be.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:27 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 3:10 pm
Posts: 218
Location: Ft. Worth
Dr. Jones,
I just purchased a copy of your book. While I have not yet read it all, chapter 25, incorporating shooter skill into the optimum diameter for the shot pattern, is worth the price alone. But I do have a question regarding this subject. If I know the percentage of shot in the 30 inch or 20 inch circle, is there a formula that will allow me to calculate the diameter of the 75% circle?

If you provide this formula in the book, would you point me to the chapter? I have jumped around a bit focusing on the chapters I’ve found most interesting.

Thank you in advance,
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:06 am 
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Tim, I thought there was a table or graph in the book but I just had a quick scan and couldn't find anything. I use the Pattern Optimiser for all the pattern related calculations:

http://www.shotgun-insight.com/PatternOptimiser.html

The bottom slider controls the 75% spread diameter and the boxes to the left give the PE in the 10, 20, and 30-inch circles.

It might be worth me stating that there’s nothing particularly significant about a “75% spread diameter”. I only chose it because it seemed like the diameter reported would be close to the effective pattern diameter for whatever discipline the shooter was considering. It also gave diameters close to 30-inches, which is what people in the past have been fixated on.

In retrospect, I wish I had stuck with my first gut feel of “50% pattern diameter”, that is the pattern diameter that on average captures 50% of the shot. But it’s tricky to convert so we are where we are . . .

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: Sporting Shotgun Performance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:25 am 
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Rastoff wrote:
I'm glad to see this here. This book deserves the advertisement. It is a must read for anyone serious about shooting shotguns.
Why? Is this going to increase my scores? Is it a how-to book or analytical data book that won't change a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:11 am 
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Jim: If you want to keep believing the myths , don't read the book.

+ Y-O-U still have to point the gun in front of the bird.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:20 am 
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sera wrote:
Jim: If you want to keep believing the myths , don't read the book.

+ Y-O-U still have to point the gun in front of the bird.
Ok. I will continue to believe the myths, whatever they are. And keeping the gun in front of the bird is sort of my point. Does this book refute that?

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 Post subject: Re: Sporting Shotgun Performance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:24 am 
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Jim Miller wrote:
Rastoff wrote:
I'm glad to see this here. This book deserves the advertisement. It is a must read for anyone serious about shooting shotguns.
Why? Is this going to increase my scores? Is it a how-to book or analytical data book that won't change a thing.
Why? Because it dispels many myths about how a shotgun works. It demonstrates how the shotgun really works vs how most think it works. It will anger many old time shooters because it uses real scientific research to show that many shooters are good shots in spite of what they believe.

Dr. Jones took the time and spent the money to investigate what's really going on with a shot pattern. He looked at it from an analytical perspective rather than the usual best guess style of analysis.

You see, most guys shoot a pattern on some cardboard and think, "That looks good," without doing any real analysis. Just looking at the pattern tells us nothing. Terms like "Hot Core" or "Blown Pattern" are bantered around all the time, but what do they mean? How are they defined? Dr. Jones takes on these terms and tries to identify them and how they really affect or don't affect the shooter's ability to break a clay.

Reading this book will save you many hours of wasted time on things that are not necessary. The best part is that he shows his work. This book is worth the read, but I warn you, it's not light reading. I've read it and need to go back and read it again. There is much that is over my head, but he explains it well so that we can understand it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:41 am 
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I am an old retired Accounting teacher. If it doesn't have a debit or credit I am lost. I doubt I would understand the preface. Thanks but all that type of information is meaningless to me. Some of you guys eat up that kind of information. Me, I just go out to the range and have fun.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:21 am 
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Jim Miller wrote:
I just go out to the range and have fun.
This is by far the best way to do it. Shoot well!

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 Post subject: Re: Sporting Shotgun Performance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:34 pm 
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Jim Miller wrote:
Why? Is this going to increase my scores?


If you score 100/100, no. If you score 0/100, probably not. If you tend to score in-between, quite possibly.

But since
Jim Miller wrote:
. . . Me, I just go out to the range and have fun.
none of it will bother you anyway, which is a shame for the greater good . . .

See, if I was in power, I'd change some of the rules, at least for the domestic disciplines. I think I could make things cheaper and more appealing. But that's not going to happen because there will always be vocal and/or persuasive people who crowd out rational debate. Only if there's some critical mass of knowledgeable people can the debate move forward logically.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:38 pm 
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See, I didn't even understand that. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 3:10 pm
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Thank you for your quick reply. I ended up just estimating the 75% pattern diameter using the average change between the 20 and 25 or the 25 and 30 inch circles. Not very elegant but given my other assumptions I'm already deep into the realm of false precision.

Have fun,
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:04 pm 
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Here is a serious question for those who have purchased and read Dr. Jones' book. What changes has it caused you to make in regard to your shooting of sporting clays targets? Are you now using more open chokes? Are you now using larger shot sizes? Do you now think more or think less about the choke, load, distance, etc?

I've considered buying his book several times, but when I read the excerpts from it, it mainly confirms what I already believe to be true. So maybe I just need to keep doing what I'm doing and believing what I'm believing. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 3:10 pm
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Location: Ft. Worth
Jim,
I like your posts because we share the view that shooting should be fun. One of our differences, however, is I think it is fun to analyze shotgun performance. I guess people really are different, imagine that.

Regarding your question about whether this book will improve your score. It is not a “how to” book, but I think it will improve my scores. To paraphrase Yogi, 90% of shooting is half mental. Oh sorry, I know some readers don’t like math. Let me try again. I spend a lot of time practicing technique so I’m a decent shot. But when I’m confident I shoot more subconsciously, see the clay better and break more targets. Higher scores equal more fun. I’ve only read a few chapters but this book has already given me more confidence in my choke selection and a better understanding of what my gun can and can’t do.

I believe people shoot better when they think less, so I don’t actually think about any of this while I’m shooting. But the few days/weeks I spend preparing off the course should increase my confidence for years if not longer. In my opinion, a little preparation up front is time well spent. Most people probably spend more time thinking about which shotgun to buy than I spend trying to figure out how to get the most performance out of mine. But in the end, this is just a hobby and reading a little about shotguns when I can’t get to the course is fun for me.

Have fun,
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:22 pm 
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Quote:
But the few days/weeks I spend preparing off the course should increase my confidence for years if not longer.
The highest level of off-course preparation I do is load my shell bag for the next day. Another difference between us is that I simply don't care enough to read, study, and/or analyze any of this. I just go to the range and shoot and laugh (sometimes cry) and then have lunch. I then go home and prepare for the next outing by refilling my shell bag ready to do it all over again.

Rastoff wrote:
I'm glad to see this here. This book deserves the advertisement. It is a must read for anyone serious about shooting shotguns.
I am not, nor ever will be, that serious about shotgun shooting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:19 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 3:10 pm
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Location: Ft. Worth
Ulysses
I have not read the entire book but I’ll give you an example of how it has helped my shooting.

Up until a few weeks ago I shot the same choke for every shot. That worked well for me. I quickly moved up several classes and my average increased. But along the way I remember missing a few punches by only one target (I still remember exactly which targets they were :x ). So I thought if I tried a little choke management I could pick up a couple targets a year. Not much but might make some difference. When I started researching choke selection online I found a lot good information and a lot of bad information. But mainly I found a lot of incomplete information. After reading only a few chapters of Dr. Jones book I believe I have a solid understanding of choke performance.

I don’t want to give away the plot but his book explains that choke selection is not just a function of optimizing patterns. Shooter skill is a big factor. The right choke for Anthony Matarese might not be the best choke for me. Sounds obvious but the book supports it with data. More importantly it provides graphs that illustrate the optimal choke for various target presentation, shot size and shooter skill. With a little pattern work and some math you can determine the best range for each of your chokes for various target presentations given your gun, ammo and skill level. In the end it convinced me I don’t need to change chokes as often as I expected. I also found it interesting that the choke I expected to work the best for a given target was often less than optimal.

You seem to be a knowledgeable shooter but I imagine there is something to learn from the book. If nothing else it might give you some data to support your existing beliefs. To me, a little data provides a lot of confidence. Hope that helps.

Have fun,
Tim




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