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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:02 pm 
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Texas Tiger 95 wrote:
I don’t want to give away the plot but his book explains that choke selection is not just a function of optimizing patterns. Shooter skill is a big factor. The right choke for Anthony Matarese might not be the best choke for me. Sounds obvious but the book supports it with data. More importantly it provides graphs that illustrate the optimal choke for various target presentation, shot size and shooter skill.

Have fun,
Tim


Thanks, Tim. I've always believed and advocated that choke selection should take into consideration many factors other than just the distance to the target. Shooter skill is certainly high on that list of considerations. Just because the "pros" use a particular choke doesn't mean that is the best choice for the average shooter, and certainly not the best choice for the beginning shooter.

Target orientation is another big factor in both choke selection and shot size selection. A 35 yard target showing a lot of belly can be broken very well with small shot (#8.5 or #9) while a 35 yard shot on a target that is showing considerable dome will have me reaching for my #7.5 shot because I've seen too many instances of shot glancing off the dome and drawing only dust.

Likewise, a 30 yard target showing a full face or full belly will generally call for a Skeet choke while an edge-on target at 30 yards needs at least a Lt Mod or perhaps a Mod choke to be sure it won't slip through the pattern. But again, shooter skill and probability figures into the equation. I haven't conducted tests or experiments to prove this, but have arrived at these conclusions through observation and experience.

I think that my observations would agree reasonably well with Dr Jones' testing and conclusions although, as I stated, I haven't read his book....... only excerpts.



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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:29 pm 
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Jim Miller wrote:
Quote:
But the few days/weeks I spend preparing off the course should increase my confidence for years if not longer.
The highest level of off-course preparation I do is load my shell bag for the next day. Another difference between us is that I simply don't care enough to read, study, and/or analyze any of this. I just go to the range and shoot and laugh (sometimes cry) and then have lunch. I then go home and prepare for the next outing by refilling my shell bag ready to do it all over again.


That’s a great quote. I love the preparation comment. But just for fun, let’s think about this a little more. From your posts I know you use Muller U1 and U2 chokes and shoot a Kreighoff with double release triggers. (I promise I’m not a stalker; just saw your recent comments on other threads) These are not the typical items you find at the local big box sporting goods store. You obviously made a conscious decision to buy these specific items. Even if these decisions were made a long time ago you had to make them at some point.

My point is we all do some preparation, at some point. Some just do more than others. Nobody is asking you to read this book or do more homework. Please understand that some of us just enjoy the preparation and the discussion.

I’ve enjoyed chatting with you. The floor is yours.

Happy shooting,
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Perhaps you are giving me too much credit, Tim. I use Mullers because someone asked me to try a Muller to see what I thought. We were on a skeet field and he gave me a U0 to try. I ran a 50 straight, something I hadn't done in a very long time. I went home and sold my Krieghoff chokes and replaced them with Mullers. They gave me more confidence than any choke I ever shot before. I think you will agree there was not preparation there on my part.

The release triggers came about because I was about to give up shooting due to excessive flinches. I dear friend of mine, a release trigger shooter himself, pulled me aside and gave me a pep talk and his another one of his release trigger guns and out we went. It only took me about a dozen shots to get used to the new triggers. We shot a hundred sporting clays targets and I didn't flinch once. (Still haven't after about two years.) Again, not much preparation on my part.

If I have a problem, such as flinching, I look for solutions and not study or analyze the dynamics of a flinch. Worked for me. I am having fun.

Sure, I understand some enjoy the analyzing and studying. I am not one of those. I wouldn't understand what I was reading anyway. I would rather spend that time having coffee and solving all the world's problems at the gun club with my friends between rounds.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:15 am 
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Jim Miller wrote:
I look for solutions and not study or analyze...
How do you find solutions without determining the cause? I understand what you're saying, but this is the problem with most of the shooting world. It is also the reason there are a hundred different choke manufacturers and plenty of shooters with bunches of chokes.

Does one choke perform better than another? The answer is no. However, if the shooter believes it does, then he will shoot better.

If nothing else, this book will save most shooters thousands of dollars by helping them focus their improvement efforts rather than just randomly buying some other gadget to "see" if it works better.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:31 am 
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Rastoff wrote:
Jim Miller wrote:
I look for solutions and not study or analyze...
How do you find solutions without determining the cause? Someone was a whole lot smarter than I am and invented the release trigger a long time ago. Why I flinched is of no import to me. My friend told me to try his gun with a release trigger and presto, the flinch was gone. No analyzing on my part because I didn't care about reasons just fixes. I understand what you're saying, but this is the problem with most of the shooting world. It is also the reason there are a hundred different choke manufacturers and plenty of shooters with bunches of chokes.

Does one choke perform better than another? The answer is no. However, if the shooter believes it does, then he will shoot better. Whether the Muller chokes works better or not, my scores are higher now than they were with my Krieghoff chokes and pull triggers. Does it really matter why?

If nothing else, this book will save most shooters thousands of dollars by helping them focus their improvement efforts rather than just randomly buying some other gadget to "see" if it works better.That is what that book would be to me, just another gadget.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:34 am 
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I'm minded to recall when I bought a 4" 686 from a shifty looking Chinese chap. He didn't inspire much confidence so I insisted on giving it a quick test run. The first five shots went pretty much in the same hole and the last just kissed the main group. Obviously I bought the gun - I would have been mad not to. But the truth was that group was a fluke and neither the gun nor me were anything special.

There's no way a choke can make a profound difference to a score at skeet unless there is something hideously wrong ( it's throwing a super tight pattern or way off centre ) . One open choke is pretty much just like another - basically a simple cylinder.

If you suspected the equipment made the difference you should have investigated what the differences were. As I said, to have a significant effect on a score at skeet, the pattern differences would need to be huge and obvious.

If it's all in the mind and yours is so easily manipulated, then that's what you should focus on knowing that the chokes make next to no difference.

As things stand you sound like a salesman for those copper bracelets that cure all sorts of ailments. Some of the upmarket bracelets are so good they don't even have copper in them!

Andrew.

(As a PS, I'd love to see the measured difference between a K choke and the one that replaced it. I also wish you'd asked for your money back from K since the choke was so obviously defective. :wink: )

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:43 am 
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Your rudeness aside, I wish you well in your book sales. I didn't need to ask for my money back on the Krieghoff chokes. I sold them for what I had in them. I don't think I said the equipment made the difference, I just shoot better with what I have now and don't give a rat's a$$ why. By the way, it is not I that sounds like a copper bracelet salesman. I am not the one trying to sell something.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:27 pm 
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I'm not rude, I just upset people by getting to the nub of things.

Quote:
I don't think I said the equipment made the difference,


Quote:
We were on a skeet field and he gave me a U0 to try. I ran a 50 straight, something I hadn't done in a very long time. . . . . . . . They gave me more confidence than any choke I ever shot before.


Well, you'll have to forgive me, but that reads to me like you are claiming the equipment made a difference.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:32 pm 
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My claim is I don't know what the caused the difference and don't care. The fact is I have been shooting better with the Mullers for whatever is the reason. And yeah, you were rude.

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 Post subject: Re: Sporting Shotgun Performance
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Hi Jim, nothing personal but I think you got the ball rolling on the rudeness with this post.

Jim Miller wrote:
Rastoff wrote:
I'm glad to see this here. This book deserves the advertisement. It is a must read for anyone serious about shooting shotguns.
Why? Is this going to increase my scores? Is it a how-to book or analytical data book that won't change a thing.


That post sounds more like an attempt to stir the pot than an attempt to add to the discussion. Frequently telling everyone on a thread dedicated to discussing a book about analyzing shotgun perform that it’s a waste of time to analyze shotgun performance is sure to raise a few hackles. :D
Just my 2 cents.

Have Fun,
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:31 pm 
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I guess you are entitled to your opinion. So I will ask you, will it increase my scores by reading a book I probably won't understand or would it be a waste of my time? With all due respect, Tim, I think you should reread the whole thread again. You might get a better handle on my intent. If you still think I was rude, then I apologize.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:09 pm 
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Hi Jim - as you suggested I reread the entire thread but I don’t think we’ll agree on this so I’ll let it be.

No need to apologize. I don’t think either of us was trying to offend the other.

Have fun,
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:17 am 
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Texas Tiger 95 wrote:
In the end it convinced me I don’t need to change chokes as often as I expected.

Tim, I was going to caution you about getting neurotic about chokes, but then I noticed the above, which I consider a good conclusion. The measurements suggest that tight chokes push out the pattern by 8-12 yards compared to open chokes, that is, Cyk, SK1, IC, SK2, LM, M, IM, LF, F, XF are splitting ~10 yards pattern projection. In a sporting clays context you can’t judge distance to a yard, so there’s not much point worrying about an exact choke, and this even more true when manufacturing variances are taken into account.

Personally, I think in terms only of “open” and “tight”. “Open” is Cyl and ¼, “tight” is ¾ and full; four chokes is all I’d go for. Cyl and ¼ are fine for skeet. ¾ and full are likely to perform almost the same but psychologically ¾ seems less (that’s not logical but it’s me in this respect).

The open chokes will cover all the close and most medium distance targets and full face targets out to ~40 yards. The tight chokes are for the longish edge-on ones or targets that are going away quickly and you don’t want to feel rushed into taking the shot.

You’d think that medium targets would demand medium chokes, but personally, I pigeon hole these targets into difficult or easy, and so “open” or “tight” chokes respectively. That’s how I avoid agonising over chokes vs distance.

If I don’t want to change chokes or have a fixed choke gun my preference is ¼ + ¾ to cover most cases most of the time. This definitely costs me targets when both targets are close and awkward though.

If I were shooting on a manicured layout where one could use a trolley, I suppose I’d carry #9s for 20 yards, UK#8s for 30 yards, UK#7.5 or #7s for 40 yards and a few UK#6.5s for anything at silly distance. I never did that here because carrying all that would be so exhausting shooting would suffer. But if I was serious and could, I suppose I would/should.

The measurements suggest that getting the best pellet size can get you ~2-5% extra score in the long run. The corollary is that being less than optimal by a pellet size or two won’t have a devastating negative effect either. But if you are looking for a percent or so extra, big pellets for distance and small pellets for close is something you can do almost for free. I have a feeling approx’ 1ft-lb is about the optimum for downrange pellet energy, though this really demands better measurements. The ~1ft-lb gives you the pellet sizes vs distance I mentioned above.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:33 am 
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I was possibly one of the most vocal critics of this book.
Seemed like a lot of work that didn't alter the way I shoot one little bit.
But then I thought I would give the book a thoroughly good analytical read.
What did I discover?
That a tremendous amount of time and effort had gone into collating information that I had accumulated through 55 years of shooting but had not heeded.
Suffice to say that I now shoot mainly modified chokes and English 7.5's one ounce for nearly everything. I am happy with my performance and ability, but happier that I took the time to read the book.
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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:05 am 
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Jim Miller wrote:
My claim is I don't know what the caused the difference...
This is why I think most shooters should read this book. In your case, you got lucky. One change and your scores got better though, I'll bet you've made many changes before that.

The concept here is to have an understanding of why a change is made and how it will affect your shooting before you make that change. At least this way you'd have a chance to make a purposeful choice rather than just randomly trying a "new" product.

Jim Miller wrote:
...reading a book I probably won't understand...
This is impossible to know unless you read the book. It's circular logic. Dr. Jones does a good job of making things that could be confusing, clear.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:10 am 
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Dr. Jones – thank you for your thorough reply. The shot size point is something I hadn’t considered. For courses I know well it should be easy to tailor the shot size to the course and add only a few more boxes.

Regarding the choke selection, my conclusions were similar to yours. But since no good deed goes unpunished, would you mind quickly reviewing my game plan to make sure I didn’t miss too much?

This is based on information I read in chapter 25.
I’m primarily a sporting clays shooter. My estimated skill level falls into your aiming error “shooter skill – 30 inch” (A/AA) category. I’ve narrowed my choke selection to IM (3/4) and cylinder. So far I think that agrees with your post. At 20 yards my cylinder has a 75% pattern diameter of 22 inches. My IM has a 75% pattern diameter of 23 inches and 34 inches at 30 yards and 40 yards, respectively. Using your tables for target presentation, pellet density and skill set on page 208 (I focused on tables 2000 for edge, 3000 for some angle, and 4500 for face), I concluded I could use my IM for all targets (face through edge) 25 yards and greater and my cylinder for everything inside of 25 yards.

The first thing that surprised me (and therefore the area I was hoping you would comment on) was that for my estimated skill level, I could confidently use a tighter choke on face targets as close as 25 yards without reducing my odds of breaking the target. If my understanding is sound, using the IM for everything over 25 yards would allow me to worry much less about estimating yardage and changing chokes based on face or edge.

The other thing that surprised me was my old plan of using a LM for everything was actually a poor compromise. While the LM is a fine choke it appears to be too open for edge and too tight for close targets.

Thank you,
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:52 am 
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Tim, “The shooter skill” models I used are most appropriate to trap and least (probably totally inapplicable to sporting and game shooting). Trap has repeatable target distances and presentations and the shooters are pretty consistent. The misses in trap tend to be due to small pointing errors and I suspect that a distribution of pointing errors would be Gaussian like.

Sporting clays is completely different. The distribution of misses is likely to be completely different. Someone might get ~100% on one stand and ~0% on another. You can often see quite good shooters blank a stand that looks easy. They are likely to be missing in the same way every time rather than having a distribution of pointing errors about the idea (the premise of my skill models).

In such cases, a more open choke might get a lot more targets. Someone who regularly gets 90 at sporting is doing pretty well. Getting 90 at trap is pretty bad. So for sporting a pattern that only has a 95% chance of a pellet strike in the centre isn’t necessarily bad.

I just had a play with the Pattern Optimiser. If you put in 450 pellets (28-grams of UK#8s), target size of 7 sq-in and then look at how the pattern width that gives a probability of 1 pellet strike of 50% varies. . . . If you assume a target distance of 30 yards (when I chose 7-sq inches target size, in my mind I was thinking of a potentially tricky target coming from over a tree, say, so it’s showing some belly, it’s definitely doable but might catch you out due to compound lead). At 30 yards a good tight choke can deliver a pattern spread of ~18” (98% PE) and a true cylinder can deliver 40” spread (PE ~54%). This gives a range of 13.5” from the centre (i.e. 27” diameter) to 22” (i.e. 44” diameter) for the pattern extent that gives at least a 50% chance of a pellet strike. The tight pattern has a near guaranteed pellet strike diameter of ~17”, the open pattern, even at its centre has a 3% chance of no pellet strikes.

You need to decide what the trade-off is between the size of the pattern that gives a certainty of a pellet strike versus the size of the pattern that gives a probability. I suspect that for most people, say everyone who averages 75% or less (but it might be a much higher figure) would benefit from erring on the side of a more open pattern. I don’t think you can have a formulaic answer to this conundrum.

Take this idea to an extreme, and consider a 4-sq-in edge on 40 yards target. A cylinder choke will give a PE of ~40%, and according to the Pattern Optimiser a perfect shooter will get ~70% (assuming a 400 pellet payload, i.e. UK#7.5). So, even if you had completely the wrong choke for this longish edge on crosser, perfect pointing would still get you ~70% score. There aren’t many people who can hit a genuine 40-yard edge on crosser more than three quarters of the time, but those who can benefit more from tighter chokes.

There are people who like to err on the side of pattern tightness so that in their mind they know they have enough pattern density to deliver a target break if their pointing is good. Smoking a few targets is good for the confidence too. A counter mind-argument would be, knowing you have some pattern spread allows you to swing more freely and not try and be too accurate (with all its attendant problems). You can cut the psychology aspect either way. You need to decide what works best for you.

The chokes might come down to personal preference (intertwined with shooter skill), but the correct pellet size always works in you favour. It’s just a shame nobody has measured this to any useful degree!

Another thought on medium chokes: Sometimes some of them deliver tight patterns, on other occasions or scenarios not. You are never really sure what you have with a medium choke unless you have tested it with your shells.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:11 pm 
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Dr. Jones,
Thank you for clearing up my mistake regarding your shooter skill data. Your explanation makes sense. I’ll take your recommendation on the more open chokes and pellet size.

Thanks again for your help.
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:24 am 
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It appears that the book does a thorough analysis of lead shot performance but what I would love to see is one that studies steel load behavior.

Like it or not, lead is well on the way out.

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 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:26 am 
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I am sure that Tom Roster would be pleased to write a book on Steel Shells.
Meanwhile we will continue with Lead thank you very much, being as most of the reasons to ban Lead have little foundation, and nothing yet as been found to be a suitable alternative.




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