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 Post subject: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:46 am 
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I've read here where people recommend lower velocity shells for clays. I primarily shoot sporting clays, and have shot several boxes of high velocity shells, and seem to do a little better with them. I can't really feel a difference in recoil. I have read (Gun Digest Book of Trap and Skeet Shooting), and also been told by a couple of guy who shoot clays in competition, that high velocity shells will break more targets. Like everyone else, I've wobbled more than a few birds and felt like they were hit, but didn't break. Maybe a HV shell would have done the trick. Opinions?



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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:06 pm 
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JMO :D

If you do your part the clay will break,high or low V shells. You say recoil doesn't bother you, ok are you as fresh at the end of a round as at the beginning :?: Do you maybe drop more targets towards the end of a round :?:Do you maybe lift your head just a little towards the end of a round :?: Just because you may not be sore or no cheek pain IMO doesn't mean recoil isn't bothering you.

Not calling you out on the recoil doesn't bother me at all,but I can't figure out why folks won't go with lower recoiling shells :? Why punish yourself if you don't need to.

But use what you want it's your body,as for me I'll stick with my 1oz @1200 FPS shells and not be bothered by recoil :D

Take care,stay cool and break um all {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Will a 1 oz. high velocity shell be better, worse, or maybe about the same as a 1 1/8 oz. low velocity shell with regard to recoil?

But Jerry you do have a valid point, and probably the most valid point for sporting clay shooters. I typically start out pretty good and wind up losing more birds on the last stations.

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:29 pm 
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I have seen total blooper loads -- like exiting the muzzle at 600 FPS where you can practically see the shot swarm mozy out to the target -- and it still breaks the clay just like a 1200 FPS load does. If you go to a true crosser, like station 4 on a skeet field, and shoot a 900 FPS low recoil load and a 1300 FPS screamer, you can see they require a tiny difference in leads -- but it's not as much as you'd expect. Of course the lead difference is even less critical on quartering targets.

As for energy and breaks, I had a weird experience yesterday. I was shooting up some faster loads I wanted to get rid of, and on this one lazy L>R quartering 20-25 yard incomer, I slightly over-lead it and instead of breaking it changed course by nearly 40 degrees so it was now flying R>L! It may have been chipped, but I never saw it fly off and it flew true and didn't wobble. I've moved clays a little bit before without breaking them, but never anything like that...

My goal is to make sure I am on the bird first and foremost, then regardless of what load I shoot -- or choke for that matter -- I'll usually inkball the clay. And the ancillary point I take from that is that lighter loads are less fatiguing than heavy loads.

YMMV...

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Last edited by JacksBack on Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:36 pm 
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ETex2 wrote:
Will a 1 oz. high velocity shell be better, worse, or maybe about the same as a 1 1/8 oz. low velocity shell with regard to recoil?


Steve,

I know there is a chart somewhere that has all kinds of data on this subject,I just need to find it again and I'll post it. Maybe someone will come along and post the link to it if I can't find it for a while. :D

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:37 pm 
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ETex2 wrote:
Will a 1 oz. high velocity shell be better, worse, or maybe about the same as a 1 1/8 oz. low velocity shell with regard to recoil?

Depends, but I'd comfortably assume worse most of the time: Try this: http://www.huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Here's one shotshell ballistics chart that might be helpful re pellet energy and velocity: http://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.com/do ... istics.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:59 pm 
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Here's another--- http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:42 am 
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Energy is what breaks clays and the more of it you have downrange (both individual pellet energy and total pellets) the more likely one of them will break the target.

What most people fail to appreciate is that the energy required to break a clay is not uniform over the surface of the clay. Some parts of the clay can be struck with much lower energies and still break. I know, "Ah, that's obvious, everybody knows the rim is stronger than the dome". But what people don't consider is that the susceptibility of the rim (or dome) is also a function of impact angle. Pellets with higher energy can impact at shallower angles and still break the clay. Hence higher energy pellets are more likely to break the target. Conversely, some parts of the clay when hit square-on will break with very low pellet energy impacts. People who see clays break with low energy pellets (very low velocity or small pellet size) assume that because it broke once, it will break every time "if the shot is put on the target".

The relationship between pellet energy and target breaking is very complex (this is a bit of analytic show-boating but it's at the heart of pellet performance):
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A more complete explanation is at:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=240509&start=20

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:01 am 
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Doc Jones,

I will defer to your knowledge and all the testing you have done and I thank you for sharing what you have found with us {hs#

I also understand that higher pellet energy gives you a better chance of breaking a clay,but for myself and many others I will continue to shoot the lower velocity shells (around 1200 FPS for me).

I'll just take my chances losing a few clays to avoid the abuse to my body from the shoulder busters. I shoot for the enjoyment of it :D not for fame or glory.

If a person could make a living from the competition part of clay shooting(not from instruction,clinics etc) just shooting comps and IF I had the desire to try that then my opinion might change.

But for I'd say 85 to 90 % of us it's a hobby and for bragging rights,so for myself I'll keep shooting the shells I like :wink: and enjoy my shooting buddies and being able to just go shoot and not take a beating.

Take care and again thanks for sharing your knowledge and findings with us {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:18 am 
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hopper, A couple of things for you to mull over:

1) For a given amount of recoil, would you be better off with a light fast load, or a slower heavier one. For example, 1 oz at 1200fps or 7/8oz at 1370fps?

2) Completely unrelated to 1), I suggest that most people would prefer to do better than worse. There are some people who really don't care how many they hit, but a lot of others who aren't serious would still much much rather get 80 than 79, much more than the 1% change in scores would suggest. Even somebody in D-class would rather win his class than lose. An awful lot of people chop and change guns, shells, or chokes to try and do better while also professing to be only in it for fun.

One of my over-arching conclusions is that most things, most of the time don't make much difference. I believe it's still worth understanding why this is the case to avoid heading in the wrong direction and instead knowing why you can instead dispense a pinch of salt to whatever claim may come up.

Andrew.

PS, the answer to 1) is not rivial.

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:20 am 
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It seems fairly clear from Andrew's 1st post (if it wasn't already) that if all else is equal, fast is better than slow. It's like the shell speed equivalent of the choke argument where someone says they can break 60yd edge ons with a skeet choke (read sub-sonic shell). Maybe you can, but you'll break more of them using a tight choke (read fast shell).

I've never met anyone who didn't want to break as many clays as they possibly could. Surely, if recoil is a problem, there are better ways of dealing with it than using Mickey Mouse shells.

The fun part begins when comparing recoil characteristics. For example: Why is it that shells from different makers, with the exact same load & fps specs, can have a dramatically different feel at the shoulder?

Which is more tiring: A) The short sharp hit from a shell with fast burn powder or B) the longer shove from slower burn powder?

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:45 am 
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Trickster wrote:
It seems fairly clear from Andrew's 1st post (if it wasn't already) that if all else is equal, fast is better than slow. It's like the shell speed equivalent of the choke argument where someone says they can break 60yd edge ons with a skeet choke (read sub-sonic shell). Maybe you can, but you'll break more of them using a tight choke (read fast shell).

I've never met anyone who didn't want to break as many clays as they possibly could. Surely, if recoil is a problem, there are better ways of dealing with it than using Mickey Mouse shells.

The fun part begins when comparing recoil characteristics. For example: Why is it that shells from different makers, with the exact same load & fps specs, can have a dramatically different feel at the shoulder?

Which is more tiring: A) The short sharp hit from a shell with fast burn powder or B) the longer shove from slower burn powder?


That's the real question. But I won't even venture a guess, esp. since there seems to be some physicists posting here. :s

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:57 am 
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Depends on how faster shells pattern in YOUR gun - many times, very fast ammo gives a doughnut pattern with big holes that targets get through unscathed.

As for calculating recoil, 10X's calculator is excellent:

http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/ ... ulator.htm

I use 40 grains for a wad weight, as it is close. For factory ammo, a powder charge of 18-20 will work, just be consistent. You'll find that a typical pheasant load of 1-1/4 oz @ 1300 fps is about the same recoil as a 30-06, so a 1-1/8 running the same speed isn't a whole lot less.

I don't know about you, but I never shot 100+ plus rounds from my hunting rifles in a short period like that - it hurt too much the next day

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:09 am 
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I will say this, I shot a round of sporting clays once using Winchester high velocity loads, and it wasn't noticeably different than the other lower velocity loads I usually shot. I wasn't sore from it at all. Now maybe 2 rounds would be different. I may have been a little more tired towards the end of the round, but that's typical for me no matter what. Now that I'm switching from a semi-auto to an O/U, this may be a factor. I'm in pretty good shape, but I'll also turn 60 in a few months, so....

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:14 am 
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Quote:
Depends on how faster shells pattern in YOUR gun - many times, very fast ammo gives a doughnut pattern with big holes that targets get through unscathed.


I'd love to see the proof of that. What I can say is (and show), is that when I tested from subsonics to ~1500fps MV there was no fundamental change in the distribution of the pellets. No evidence whatsoever of blown patterns. Furthermore, there is no underlying reason why the pattern should suddenly degrade and even less than none of a reason as to how it would form a doughnut distribution.

This "speed destroys patterns" is one of the shotgun lores that would be nice to eradicate.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:20 am 
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Dr A C Jones wrote:
2) Completely unrelated to 1), I suggest that most people would prefer to do better than worse. There are some people who really don't care how many they hit, but a lot of others who aren't serious would still much much rather get 80 than 79, much more than the 1% change in scores would suggest. Even somebody in D-class would rather win his class than lose. An awful lot of people chop and change guns, shells, or chokes to try and do better while also professing to be only in it for fun.


Doc,

I understand and agree with you,Sure I want to hit and break as many targets as I can,But speaking only for myself I would rather shoot the lower velocity shells(I forgot to put in my first post I shoot 12 Ga. 1oz at around 1200 FPS)than shoot the higher ones to maybe pick up a target or 2 YMMV :D

To each their own {hs# To me this will always be 1 of the topics to sit around to cuss and discus in the club house at the end of the day.

Take care and break um all :D

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:50 am 
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oneounceload wrote:
Depends on how faster shells pattern in YOUR gun

Sure, and that's why I used the expression "if all else is equal".

Dr A C Jones wrote:
1) For a given amount of recoil, would you be better off with a light fast load, or a slower heavier one. For example, 1 oz at 1200fps or 7/8oz at 1370fps?

Andrew, IIRC the last time you posed a question (How many pellets?) it took about 3 months to get an answer.

Any chance you could do better this time? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:32 am 
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Quote:
Depends on how faster shells pattern in YOUR gun

Well, another of my conclusions from the tests (and consistent with results from other sources) is that patterns from different guns are much more similar than different. I tested five different 12 gauges and despite huge differences in the full choke profiles, they all patterned near enough the same. There's a lot of underlying physics to suggest that patterns (on average) will always be Gaussianish (hot centres, gradually less dense with increasing distance from the centre). Nobody has ever come up with a method of delivering "doughnut patterns", let alone getting them by chance.

So, the old canard "every gun is a law unto itself" can be put into the BS category - unless somebody comes up with verifiable evidence to the contrary of course.

As for the pellet strikes, the answer is "one". But what's more interesting is why it's one. Neil Winston's videos that show small numbers of pellet strikes totally destroying clays, so you'd think the "one pellet" idea would be beyond dispute . . . . but no.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: High velocity shells
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Dr A C Jones wrote:
Quote:
Depends on how faster shells pattern in YOUR gun - many times, very fast ammo gives a doughnut pattern with big holes that targets get through unscathed.


I'd love to see the proof of that. What I can say is (and show), is that when I tested from subsonics to ~1500fps MV there was no fundamental change in the distribution of the pellets. No evidence whatsoever of blown patterns. Furthermore, there is no underlying reason why the pattern should suddenly degrade and even less than none of a reason as to how it would form a doughnut distribution.

This "speed destroys patterns" is one of the shotgun lores that would be nice to eradicate.

Andrew.


I have seen it in MY patterns with MY gun using the Winchester Universals that run very fast - blotchy patterns, big spaces inside the circle, and all with the added "benefit" of more recoil and lousy ejection

Maybe they don't do it in YOUR gun, but please don't go spouting it as internet gospel truth that it doesn't happen



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