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 Post subject: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:20 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Okay, I have a pretty stupid and maybe obvious question.

I've been shooting clays for about 3 years now. I've shot skeet, sporting clays, and 5-Stand. I'm getting better, and listen to as many experienced shooters as I can.

One thing I cannot do, that I think is critical to improving, is tell where I'm missing. I know the clay didn't break, but how do I know if I was behind it, over top, under, etc.

I have other shooters at the field say, "You were over top that one". Okay, I don't doubt that, but how do you know? I can't see hundreds of tiny pellets traveling at over 1,000 fps.

Can people really see that?

All I see is the wadding from the shell sometimes, and that certainly is not an indicator of where I've missed.

Any tips greatly appreciated.




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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:27 am
Posts: 2806
Location: North Central West Virginia
Evidently some people can, because they tell me the same thing. I've tried, I cannot see it, but then again, I can barely focus on the bird most of the time. My eyes are not good at this point, but I truthfully don't know how they see where the miss is.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:21 pm
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Location: UK
Some people can see where the gun is pointing even when not standing directly behind the gun. It's a bit like shooting from the hip; not especially difficult once you get the knack.

Seeing the shot cloud depends a lot on the weather and where you're postioned. I've never heard anyone claim to be able to see the shot when actually shooting, but from behind it can be seen as a dark blur in good light and low angle sunlight with a dark background can make it glisten. I don't have the eyesight I had 60 years ago - who does - but in the right conditions I can sometimes see the shot cloud if I look for it. Remember though that most misses are behind, most of the rest are over the top and many are both, so it's easy for the guy behind to offer up a confident sounding opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:32 am 
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I agree with Trickster that some people can tell where the shot was missed by where the gun is pointed at the instant the shot is taken. I can do this pretty well with some, perhaps most, shooters on most shots when I'm standing behind them and looking over their shoulder. But the really weird thing is that when I'm doing the shooting and miss a target, I often don't have any idea where I missed it. Strange, but true.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:50 am 
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A thing that has helped me when trying to figure out the where part is this(no way is it 100 % the answer :wink: ) and this is when training/practicing.

After a miss don't move the gun leave it and call for another target and see if there was a curl you didn't notice or it was maybe rising/falling at the time you triggered the shot.

Just some thing that has helped with the whys/hows/wheres I missed YMMV :)

And no I can't see the shot cloud

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:03 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:16 pm
Posts: 68
I have shot clays for about forty years now. On occasion I have seen a gray ,cloud which I assumed was the shot. I have never been able to locate it in relation to the target. After awhile the ones who can see it and blurt out, "You were behind that bird" become a pain in the butt. Often if you get two of these guys in a squad they will contradict each other, which brings into question their reliability. I don't doubt that there are a few with great eyesight who do have the true ability. It's more valuable, however, to know WHY YOU MISSED IT.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:58 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:40 pm
Posts: 624
BOBUP wrote:
I have shot clays for about forty years now. On occasion I have seen a gray ,cloud which I assumed was the shot. I have never been able to locate it in relation to the target. After awhile the ones who can see it and blurt out, "You were behind that bird" become a pain in the butt. Often if you get two of these guys in a squad they will contradict each other, which brings into question their reliability. I don't doubt that there are a few with great eyesight who do have the true ability. It's more valuable, however, to know WHY YOU MISSED IT.


I agree


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:59 am 
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Has anyone ever tried those tracer loads ?

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:10 am 
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WHY is way more important than where. Head lifting , gun stopping , wrong read on the line or on the speed of the target.

Find a coach (or friend) who can see those things.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:17 am 
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Location: Michigan
McFarmer wrote:
Has anyone ever tried those tracer loads ?


Yep my shooting buddy and I have shot around 100 of them. Problem with the tracer loads is we've never missed the target when we use them, strange but true :? Maybe we should use them in a tournament (not legal) and run a 100 straight :s


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:41 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:00 pm
Posts: 122
One coach that I took lessons from made this statement when I missed: "What did you REALLY SEE when that shot was taken?". He was trying to get me to develop the ability to create the correct image before taking the shot, and also to understand what was wrong with the image when I missed.

Another notable statement was; "If you don't know why you hit targets, you won't know why you miss them."

All to often at this stage of my development I hit targets and am not sure why - indicative of reactive vs. proactive shooting (or fixing it at the end). This approach will only take one so far toward more consistency and higher scores. Breaking this cycle is currently a primary focus of my practice.

As the comic Red Green often stated: "Remember, I'm pulling for you. We're all in this together."


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:52 am 
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From my experience in shooting 100k+ tournament targets over 15+ yrs , new guys miss behind.

They miss behind due to too much bbl awareness. They are trying to see lead as a precise "number"--feet at the target or inches at the muzzle. They also miss due to lifting their heads to see better. We all "know" that we need to look hard at the target and w/ that gun bbl in our faces , the easiest way is too lift our heads and peak around the bbl. The desire to "see better" is caused by inserting the gun too close to the target , blocking the target w/ the bbls and/or an ill-fitted gun.

Experienced shooters miss off-line or getting out of sync and shooting way ahead. For example , if the target beats you and you are chasing it , you CANNOT see the same lead as if you had maintained a nice measure of air to start with. When chasing , you are creating lead and cannot thus "see air" [lead] , too or you'll be way in front.

The why is more vital than the where. In fact "the where" is usually awful as this leads to "measuring" which is the death knell to a good score.

So if I say "You are behind it." and you then put a lot more lead on it , you will "see' that it's too much and stop your gun to correct and miss behind. It is an insidious error magnifying effect. If I say "you're looking at the bbls, stop and look at the target and have a minimal amount of bbl awareness" , you might just hit the next one.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:00 pm 
Field Grade
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:43 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Minnesota
McFarmer wrote:
Has anyone ever tried those tracer loads ?

Do you mean Winchester AA TrAAcker shells ?
I bought a case of each color last fall when MPW had a sale on them.
I feel they help me see where I am missing somewhat.
You need both the black and orange ones for different sky conditions. I have had about 4-5 times when my shooting partner thought I "chipped" the bird when it was just the wad he saw.
They can help but they are no substitute for a good teacher.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:28 pm
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Location: Fresno,CA
Simply put...Pay attention to your shot and you should learn. For some sooner than later and some never.

Whatever you do do not listen to the peanut gallery behind you!! I stress that with everyone I coach and instruct. Why cuzz most are not accurate with their assessment. I also go so far to work with many of my students to SEE the shot cloud or call the shot from the muzzle when warranted. As I said some get it some don't.

If I may also add being able to call the shot is tantamount to becoming an instructor or coach. The NSCA stresses this from the get go or you will not progress.

Allow me to take it one step further as some have indicated it is not where but why. That's a fact however where serves as an indicator. Many times it shows a pattern, others a confirmation etc. I use it more for myself than sharing it on every shot like some in the peanut gallery do!! Whatever the case it is an important skill to be learned.

Dan Whitehead
NSCA Level III Instructor

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:30 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Thanks for all the great input and suggestions. As to the why, well yes, that is THE question, right? We all want to know why I just missed that bird. In my original question of where did I miss, I was thinking that maybe incorrect methods/tendencies could perhaps come out due to the 'where' identification.

I have not gotten any formal instruction. Where I shoot is a contract run facility on government property so they don't have the same offerings as a club, such as clinics, lessons, gun fitting, etc.
I'm sorta on my own. I've never had a gun fit and I purchased a Mossberg 930 28" autoloader to get started. I know it is not a great gun, and frankly I have no idea how the stock fits me.

Some days I do great. By great I mean 17-19 hits in skeet. I tend to do better on a sporting clays course, but I am hot and cold. I had a fantastic day last month at the a sporting clays course a ways from here. Probably the best I've ever had. I went back the next month and I could not hit birds at stations where I was hitting 5 for 5. It was odd. I didn't feel like I did anything different the second time around, but clearly I was. It was like night and day.

Thus my quest to figure out what I was doing wrong that second time around. The trapper I was with was offering suggestions best he could, but I'm not sure there was any consistency to his analysis.

I've looked on this site, but is there an organization that lists certified coaches that I could get in touch with. I'm in South East VA.

Thanks,


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Location: Fresno,CA
BG I sorry to say what you described is a bad bug for which there is no cure!

That aside without seeing you shoot I would not venture concrete help here. I will say your second trip back to the range you arrived with expectations which turned into frustration. Watch that and remember how you felt and work not to go there.

Do go to the NSCA website they have the certified instructors there from Level I to III.
Have fun on your journey! Oh and that bug it does become cronic.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:24 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Docterduck wrote:
BG I sorry to say what you described is a bad bug for which there is no cure!

That aside without seeing you shoot I would not venture concrete help here. I will say your second trip back to the range you arrived with expectations which turned into frustration. Watch that and remember how you felt and work not to go there.

Do go to the NSCA website they have the certified instructors there from Level I to III.
Have fun on your journey! Oh and that bug it does become cronic.



Just add it to my list of addictions. See, here's the problem. There are NO SC's instructors in this area per the NSSA/NSCA website. There is ONE level 1 skeet guy in the area, and I think he has stopped teaching. I've tried to get in touch with him before.

I live in an area of approximately 1.7m people. One of the highest concentrations of retired and active military, and I can't find someone to give me clay's instructions?

How can that be? I live in Virginia Beach. Anyone know any more experienced shooters in this area that might know someone? The closest Sporting Clays facility is near Richmond (Old Forge) which is 1hr 20 for me.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:57 pm 
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I think that Seamus O'caside is in that area. That may not be the exact correct spelling, but it's close. That's his board name here.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:09 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Thanks very much. How do I search the member directory or list? Not seeing it from my control panel.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Location: Fresno,CA
Seamus you will find him down int the Beretta forum. Send him a pm.
Call a couple of Level III and see if they can make a recommendation for you??

It sounds like you are active military ?? If you get transferred to NAS Leemore look me up...no charge for any active military!!



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