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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:54 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Docterduck wrote:
Seamus you will find him down int the Beretta forum. Send him a pm.
Call a couple of Level III and see if they can make a recommendation for you??

It sounds like you are active military ?? If you get transferred to NAS Leemore look me up...no charge for any active military!!


Thanks for the kind offer Docterduck, but I am not active duty. Sometimes I think I am the only one around here who is not :shock:

Sent a PM to Seamus. Maybe he'll know someone from up in his part of Virginia.

Good thought contacting ANY level instructors in this area.

I'll find someone. Just have to be persistent.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.




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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:26 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:21 am
Posts: 3447
Location: South Texas
Beach Gunner...go back and reread what sera wrote...he nailed it.

I will add this, anytime you know exactly where you missed, it is because you were looking at the barrel and not the bird...most of the time that slows the gun down and you shoot behind. See? Sera was right again!

Even knowing the where is no real help because now all you know is the result of the shot. You still have no idea of how to correct your problem. You need the WHY. I shoot over that one...WHY...because I picked my head up...now you know what to fix, keep your head down.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:50 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 1486
Location: Virginia
Beach Gunner---PM sent.

It is almost impossible for the shooter to see his shot string. I and other experienced coaches can see a shot-string--some of the time. As said above it is a factor of lighting, sky condition, and how well my eyes are working that day and what color lens I am using.

I suggest that Chris Batha's book "Breaking Clays" and Peter Blakeley's "You're Behind It may be beneficial to you. There are many really good books and videos on hte market--these two provide a firm foundation in the basics--something you want before you want to get into more complex explanations.

A lot of misses are off line--that is high or low as well as behind. If you are shooting a Mossberg 930, it probably shoots POA (a 50/50 pattern distribution). Since targets that have been in the air very long are falling, it is easy to miss over. It takes a lot of experience to self-diagnose a miss. You are on the right track to find a competent instructor in your area.

I hope I got all of my typos out of this--

Good luck and good shooting---

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Ken Schafer
Bull Run Shooting Instruction
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B-R-S-I.COM
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NSCA Level 2, Instructor
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CSM/TRACS Instructor

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:16 pm 
Presentation Grade
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:28 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Fresno,CA
ded&ded wrote:
Beach Gunner---PM sent.

It is almost impossible for the shooter to see his shot string. I and other experienced coaches can see a shot-string--some of the time. As said above it is a factor of lighting, sky condition, and how well my eyes are working that day and what color lens I am using.

I suggest that Chris Batha's book "Breaking Clays" and Peter Blakeley's "You're Behind It may be beneficial to you. There are many really good books and videos on hte market--these two provide a firm foundation in the basics--something you want before you want to get into more complex explanations.

A lot of misses are off line--that is high or low as well as behind. If you are shooting a Mossberg 930, it probably shoots POA (a 50/50 pattern distribution). Since targets that have been in the air very long are falling, it is easy to miss over. It takes a lot of experience to self-diagnose a miss. You are on the right track to find a competent instructor in your area.

I hope I got all of my typos out of this--

Good luck and good shooting---


Ken

Now doubt it is difficult for the shooter to see the shot string however I can and so can some of my students...not all but some. I will also go as far to say the majority of the accomplished shooters I work with know where they missed (and should) that come to me to know one thing...why. That is where real improvement begins as I know you will agree.

Now I may be unique but more often than not I do see the shot cloud of my students which IMHO is a critical part of instruction. I also have learned calling from the from muzzle, especially distance...you know those long crossers?...it becomes more incumbent for the instructor to see the cloud to help provide an effective solution. In all actuality I find myself calling the shot from the cloud more frequently.

This of coarse is not to be critical only to share what happens from my perspective.

Dan Whitehead
NSCA Level III Instructor

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:03 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Thanks everyone for such valuable advice and suggestions. I'll pick up some books and make a study of technique so I keep focusing on the why and not the where.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:52 am 
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The thing that has not been mentioned in the "where vs why" discussion is that sometimes good shooters miss too. When good shooters miss a target, it is not usually due to bad technique, but rather misjudgment of target speed or angle.

There have been many times when I was standing behind a good shooter at our club and watched him miss a couple of targets in a row that I know he would normally crush. If I've got a good read on where he missed, I'll often say something like "Fred, you're in front of that target." Fred knows that I wouldn't say anything unless I was nearly certain, so on the next (and subsequent) targets, he will cut his lead down and invariably smoke the next couple of targets.

If the shooter had been just a mediocre shooter, then telling him that he was in front (or over, or whatever) would not likely help him much, but a good shooter can make an adjustment if he knows where he missed.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:00 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 1486
Location: Virginia
Dan---No disagreement from me. Too often I over explain in Forum answers. I usually call shots based on seeing the shot but I also rely on barrel alignment. If you do not know where the shot went, it is better to not say anything.

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Ken Schafer
Bull Run Shooting Instruction
BRSI@verizon.net
B-R-S-I.COM
VA NSCA Delegate
NSCA Level 2, Instructor
NRA Level 2, Shotgun Coach
CSM/TRACS Instructor

Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:12 pm 
Presentation Grade
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:28 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Fresno,CA
Ken,

You said a mouthful there. The peanut gallery need to learn that lesson :s

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"I instruct to break targets...I coach to compete".


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:13 pm 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:18 pm
Posts: 288
I agree it's unusual for the shooter to see the shot string. But someone behind or off to the side can (if they know what to look for). For me, sometimes it's a full blown dark spot in the sky, other times it's a slight shimmer of light, others I see nothing (as said depending on experience, background, lighting, lenses). You can also sometimes see the shot in high speed video (Coaches Eye app) when you can't with the naked eye.

I also use barrel alignment to get a good idea of what the particular situation is.

Above stated 100% correctly that it's not so much about WHERE you missed as to the WHY you missed. Above/behind/under/in front is only the symptom of another problem (insertion point, look point/raising head/bad gun fit/ poor choke selection and the 10,000 other things than will go wrong)

The peanut gallery behind you may or may not give good advice. "You're behind it" is usually true, but the WHY is too often missed. Do yourself a favor: do a weekend shooting roadtrip and find a good instructor. Burn a couple of flats getting your form right and learning to see the targets.

We had a couple of cases of AATrackers donated and they worked OK, but only at closer ranges and usually with someone else seeing the wad in flight. If a shooter saw them, they noted with the head off the stock.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:13 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 8448
Location: Mechanicsville IA
Good observation on the tracer loads, few misses when using them. That should tell you something about the importance of focus and concentration.
I can generally tell what I did (and will do) wrong on trap but not so much on sporting. Knowing the paths and angles from experience helps. Those big leads needed on crossing targets are always a challenge.
Being too tight or too loose is my problem.

Between trap rounds you might want to get behind a squad and observe how others do. You will find that you know if the target will break before the gun is fired by just the gun movement.

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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:54 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:25 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Greater Nashville Area
Rack-N-Roy wrote:
McFarmer wrote:
Has anyone ever tried those tracer loads ?


Yep my shooting buddy and I have shot around 100 of them. Problem with the tracer loads is we've never missed the target when we use them, strange but true :? Maybe we should use them in a tournament (not legal) and run a 100 straight :s


I bought a box of the trader rounds and I couldn't miss with the damn things! It was odd too, my dad who had bad eyes and trouble tracking targets can see it no problem but I can't see the wad for the life of me.

I need someone to trick me into thinking in shooting tracing shells maybe my scores will go up!


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:41 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:28 pm
Posts: 4
I got a Shot Cam for just this purpose--you don't get instant feedback, but later you can see in the video where the barrel was when the shot was taken.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Tell Where You Are Missing
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:59 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
That's a good thought Rich. After the fact feedback is not as good as instant feedback, but it's feedback nonetheless.




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